Hey guys I just got into reloading and with supplies being short for about anything good I'm working with what i can get. Hodgens has reload data on BL-C(2) for 6.5 Creedmoor up to 120 grain and Hornady has data for lighter bullets. I did a load development for 120gr ELDM. I found that with my rifle it likes 40gr charge but when I got the data from the chronograph it seems like the velocities were different from one session to the next. Does anyone have an input on this maybe previous experiences with the powder?
6.5 CM BL-C(2)
- Thread starter Spartan116
- Start date
6.5 forever
Silver $$ Contributor
Chronographs can very from day to day. Lighting can affect your readings.
I used the magnetospeed v3 bore chronograph. I don't think that should change to much, would it?
6.5 forever
Silver $$ Contributor
Probably not as much as a shoot thru model.
Jager
Gold $$ Contributor
You don't provide details on the amount of shot-to-shot variance you're concerned about. But, in general, even the very best, most precise, most carefully crafted ammunition will vary somewhat from shot to shot. If you spend much time on the forum here, you'll see guys frequently mention ES (extreme spread) and SD (standard deviation)... numbers that are simply a statistical reference to that variation.
The more shots you capture with your chronograph, the greater the variation you're going to see.
Accuracy is not always associated with low velocity variance (low ES/SD numbers). Most of us will take tiny groups over nice chrono stats every time.
Welcome to handloading. And welcome to the forum!
The more shots you capture with your chronograph, the greater the variation you're going to see.
Accuracy is not always associated with low velocity variance (low ES/SD numbers). Most of us will take tiny groups over nice chrono stats every time.
Welcome to handloading. And welcome to the forum!
All sorts of interesting things can influence the speeds. You might want to tell us more. Magneto speeds are sensitive to movement on the barrel. How you hold the rifle, ammo temp, outside temp, humidity, freshly opened powder, clean barrel, brass prep, new brass, old brass, neck tension, and others might be at play.
So the diffences between averages were 100-200fps. I did a load development and came to a decision to test two different charges and decide on the best one. The first readings I had gotten, some one had shown me how to set up the magnetospeed so i set it up the same way i was shown. I think the main difference in the two days shooting is the time of day and tempature. One day was evening closer to 70 degrees and the other was mid day between 80-85 degrees. I am not really familiar with the ES number but i am more with the SD numbers. I had a few charges with an SD in the 100s. The two i did further work up on one was in the 60s and the other in the 30s. I have been fallowing Ultimate Realoader on Youtube and trying out his methods.
Thank you for the welcoming.
Also @mgunderson I clean my barrel after each shooting. The brass that i had used is new Lapua brass and new powder. I didnt think there was so many things in play on the speed of the bullet. One thing you mentioned is neck tension, I have probably heard of that before but havent learned much on it. I am not 100% sure but that could have been an issue i was having on a round here and there. I noticed that when closing a round in the chamber it was difficult to close and those rounds had a higher volocity than the others. I mentioned this to one of the guys at the local gunstore and he did say something due to the neck. maybe it was that.
Oh man the struggle of being a new guy!
Jager
Gold $$ Contributor
A few things...
A 100-200 fps variance suggests something terribly amiss. Some shot-to-shot variance is expected. But far less than what you are seeing. Magnetospeeds are known to be pretty accurate when set up properly. I would guess you've got something wrong in your chrono setup. A 15-degree temperature difference would not cause anything remotely like the difference you're seeing. And a SD in triple digits is beyond awful. It suggests an ES double that. Again, I would guess something is amiss in with how you've mounted or are using your Magnetospeed.
Difficulty in closing your bolt on some rounds suggests a full length sizing die not set up properly. You may not be getting quite enough shoulder bump, or enough sizing at the base of your cartridge.
No worries on being the new guy. This is a sport where you never learn everything there is to know, so in that respect we're all new guys.
It might be helpful if you provided the details on your rifle, how exactly you've loaded your ammo, actual numbers from your chrono, and the results you're seeing on target.
A 100-200 fps variance suggests something terribly amiss. Some shot-to-shot variance is expected. But far less than what you are seeing. Magnetospeeds are known to be pretty accurate when set up properly. I would guess you've got something wrong in your chrono setup. A 15-degree temperature difference would not cause anything remotely like the difference you're seeing. And a SD in triple digits is beyond awful. It suggests an ES double that. Again, I would guess something is amiss in with how you've mounted or are using your Magnetospeed.
Difficulty in closing your bolt on some rounds suggests a full length sizing die not set up properly. You may not be getting quite enough shoulder bump, or enough sizing at the base of your cartridge.
No worries on being the new guy. This is a sport where you never learn everything there is to know, so in that respect we're all new guys.
It might be helpful if you provided the details on your rifle, how exactly you've loaded your ammo, actual numbers from your chrono, and the results you're seeing on target.
If the neck holds your bullet (can't move it by hand) that is probably NOT the cause of hard to chamber rounds. As said, it's more likely bump.
BL-C(2) needs a hot magnum primer.
BL-C(2) needs a hot magnum primer.
I will have to check double check the chronograph set up next time i take it out. When loading the rounds i clean the brass, oil the brass, size it, inspect the brass (case guage and calipers), clean primer pockets, prime brass, clean oil from brass, weigh out charges into brass, and seat bullets. Just recently i have noticed that some of the casings dont go into the case guage all the way i resize them again if this occurs. The brass that i have is Peterson and Lapua small primer pocket. I was planning on resetting up the die the decaping rod loosened up after my last reload. I have changed it a bit after initial set up due to it being aggressive when sizing. usually when it cams over (i belive thats what thats called haha).
My rifle is the Howa 1500 apc chassis rifle with the 24" heavy barrel and a 1-8 twist
My rifle is the Howa 1500 apc chassis rifle with the 24" heavy barrel and a 1-8 twist
What is not the cause of the hard to chamber rounds? Im using the CCI Magnum Small Rifle Primers
In one of my rifles (not 6.5CM) I bump for a small headspace.
I check each and every sized case for ease to chamber. If tight, I bump a tiny bit more.
The CCI450 should be fine with ball powder.
You mentioned "session to session". What are the spreads for a single session?
Careful and slow for sizing and reloading until you have the problems ironed out.
I check each and every sized case for ease to chamber. If tight, I bump a tiny bit more.
The CCI450 should be fine with ball powder.
You mentioned "session to session". What are the spreads for a single session?
Careful and slow for sizing and reloading until you have the problems ironed out.
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Couple things, You say you prime then clean "oil" from case. Hopefully you just reversed these two when typing. Clean then prime. We don't oil the brass we lube it. Semantics I know. What type lube are you using? Bolt being hard to close could also be the bullet seated out too far, bullet hitting the throat of the chamber.
The guage is not the same as you chamber most likely. Keep the two brands of brass separate, good chance they have different internal volumes which could be causing your wide velocity swings. Also that chrono being attached to your barrel will void any meaningful accuracy data for groups fired with it attached. Once you get your sizing die set correctly, tighten its lock ring and you should be good to go till you install another barrel. Are you lubing the inside of your necks? Pulling the expander out of unlubed neck can sometimes affect the headspace. How are you cleaning your brass?
Frank
The guage is not the same as you chamber most likely. Keep the two brands of brass separate, good chance they have different internal volumes which could be causing your wide velocity swings. Also that chrono being attached to your barrel will void any meaningful accuracy data for groups fired with it attached. Once you get your sizing die set correctly, tighten its lock ring and you should be good to go till you install another barrel. Are you lubing the inside of your necks? Pulling the expander out of unlubed neck can sometimes affect the headspace. How are you cleaning your brass?
Frank
Okay so one thing I am picking up is that i have to learn a bit more about headspace. Here is the data that I pulled from the 2 different sessions.
Charge 1 Session 1
2533, 2464, 2584, 2489
Average 2517 SD 52.7
Charge 1 Session 2
2703, 2688, 2708, 2617, 2707, 2862, 2832, 2730
Average 2708 SD 60
Charge 2 Session 1
2746, 2695, 2848, 2762
Average 2762 SD 63.6
Charge 2 Session 2
2898, 2850, 2924, 2901, 2810, 2779, 2810
Average 2861 SD 52.4
That is the data that i got. I am planning on looking more into what im doing during my reloads to see what i need to change. I am definatly going to look into headspacing for sure. The lube that i am using is the lube that comes in the RCBS case lubing kit I did just get some RCBS spray lube. I keep the peterson brass in its original case and the lupua brass in a seperate case. I believe both sessions were with the lapua brass though. I clean the brass with a tubler and corn media with cleaner on it. I also do lube the inside of the neck.
Charge 1 Session 1
2533, 2464, 2584, 2489
Average 2517 SD 52.7
Charge 1 Session 2
2703, 2688, 2708, 2617, 2707, 2862, 2832, 2730
Average 2708 SD 60
Charge 2 Session 1
2746, 2695, 2848, 2762
Average 2762 SD 63.6
Charge 2 Session 2
2898, 2850, 2924, 2901, 2810, 2779, 2810
Average 2861 SD 52.4
That is the data that i got. I am planning on looking more into what im doing during my reloads to see what i need to change. I am definatly going to look into headspacing for sure. The lube that i am using is the lube that comes in the RCBS case lubing kit I did just get some RCBS spray lube. I keep the peterson brass in its original case and the lupua brass in a seperate case. I believe both sessions were with the lapua brass though. I clean the brass with a tubler and corn media with cleaner on it. I also do lube the inside of the neck.
Looking at your chrono data,
CHRG 1, Sess 1 ES 120,
CHRG 1, Sess 2 ES 174,
CHRG 1 ES 398
CHRG 1 AVG Sess 1/2 191
CHRG 2, Sess 1 ES 153,
CHRG 2, Sess 2 ES 145,
CHRG 2 ES 276
CHRG 2 AVG Sess 1/2 99
I would refer to the Magnetospeed manual for alignment (distance from bore), Sensitivity setting, and battery voltage. A weak battery will give strange results.
I see a temperature shift between session 1 and 2. Were rounds heating up in direct sunlight?
Next session go with one brand of brass and one charge. Charge 2 looks safe with the highest velocity in your data at 2924fps.
Chamber check ALL brass.
Determine Jump to lands. The ELDM probably likes about 0.030" jump, not a jam.
Book OAL for the 120gr A-MAX is 2.670". What length did you load the 120 ELDM?
Get close to jam and velocities can be all over the place with a minor change.
Make a dummy round (case/bullet no primer no powder that fits your chamber and freebore.
Keep us updated as you go and good luck.
CHRG 1, Sess 1 ES 120,
CHRG 1, Sess 2 ES 174,
CHRG 1 ES 398
CHRG 1 AVG Sess 1/2 191
CHRG 2, Sess 1 ES 153,
CHRG 2, Sess 2 ES 145,
CHRG 2 ES 276
CHRG 2 AVG Sess 1/2 99
I would refer to the Magnetospeed manual for alignment (distance from bore), Sensitivity setting, and battery voltage. A weak battery will give strange results.
I see a temperature shift between session 1 and 2. Were rounds heating up in direct sunlight?
Next session go with one brand of brass and one charge. Charge 2 looks safe with the highest velocity in your data at 2924fps.
Chamber check ALL brass.
Determine Jump to lands. The ELDM probably likes about 0.030" jump, not a jam.
Book OAL for the 120gr A-MAX is 2.670". What length did you load the 120 ELDM?
Get close to jam and velocities can be all over the place with a minor change.
Make a dummy round (case/bullet no primer no powder that fits your chamber and freebore.
Keep us updated as you go and good luck.
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So when i went home yesterday i got some cleaned brass and oiled it up and sized it. I also took the pin out of my bolt on my rifle. i sizeded the brass and chambered the brass untill i found where it would chamber easy this should be the proper headspacing for my rifle, right???? When i seat the bullet i go off of the load data for depth. So my rounds are 2.670 +/- .005 and .005 is on the higher side of it. What do you mean jump to lands? Your last paragraph went right over my head.
Sounds like you are making progress in required reloading knowledge.
By adjusting your die to YOUR chamber you should be able to feel when shoulder bump causes a tight bolt closure, a little resistance closing the bolt, and easy bolt closure. Note that only fired brass that has been expanded will be long enough (base to shoulder) to affect bolt feel.
Web expansion (near the base) can cause some bolt resistance. Measurement of this area should show if this is a problem.
Bullet jump using BOOK values and standard chamber and lead dimensions probably won't JAM a bullet into the lands. There are tools and DIY procedures to find where the bullet touches the lands. You might read that some bullets like a particular JUMP, and some like to be JAMMED. I would avoid Jamming until you have somewhat mastered reloading. Avoid the potential pressure spike, for now.
Remember to chamber check all sized brass until you have bump mastered.
A dummy round, sized case and bullet, can be used to verify neck diameter with your brand of brass and barrel neck dimensions are not interfering when chambering a round. A tight chamber neck can cause problems. Measure sized case neck with and without a bullet. What do you get?
I know you are new to some of the details of reloading. Most printed reloading manuals have a section that covers Bump and Jump
By adjusting your die to YOUR chamber you should be able to feel when shoulder bump causes a tight bolt closure, a little resistance closing the bolt, and easy bolt closure. Note that only fired brass that has been expanded will be long enough (base to shoulder) to affect bolt feel.
Web expansion (near the base) can cause some bolt resistance. Measurement of this area should show if this is a problem.
Bullet jump using BOOK values and standard chamber and lead dimensions probably won't JAM a bullet into the lands. There are tools and DIY procedures to find where the bullet touches the lands. You might read that some bullets like a particular JUMP, and some like to be JAMMED. I would avoid Jamming until you have somewhat mastered reloading. Avoid the potential pressure spike, for now.
Remember to chamber check all sized brass until you have bump mastered.
A dummy round, sized case and bullet, can be used to verify neck diameter with your brand of brass and barrel neck dimensions are not interfering when chambering a round. A tight chamber neck can cause problems. Measure sized case neck with and without a bullet. What do you get?
I know you are new to some of the details of reloading. Most printed reloading manuals have a section that covers Bump and Jump
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Hey guys just wanted to give an update. When i first bought the stuff to reload i had gotten superformance powder then switched to BL-C(2) due to not having supply of superformance. I also had to switch the grain of bullet to the 120gr. I was able to find some superformance local and online. I just did a work up on the superformance and the results were way different from the BL-C(2). On my 2 lighter charges my SD was in 20's-30's and on the 2 heavier charges one was in the low teens and the higher charge was SD of 6.1. I tried and faild to do any decent groupings. I had some issues with my performance and trying new equipment. It was a bit rough at the range. Though i made the decision to work with the charge that had the best numbers. If i remeber right that was one of the first charge weights that i ever made and also produced sub MOA groups at 100yrds. I did get a sub MOA group this go around also. I have been checking my casings with my rifle during reloading and havent had any issues at the range.
Now im going to try out the seating depths and see if i can figure that one out. There is alot into this hobby but its pretty fun.
Now im going to try out the seating depths and see if i can figure that one out. There is alot into this hobby but its pretty fun.
6.5 forever
Silver $$ Contributor
Try working on one change at a time.
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