6.5-243 WSSM Wildcat

[RonAKA]

I've been working with guns and reloading for over 40 years, but have not considered doing a wildcat until now. I'm hoping someone can give me their thoughts/tips, on some probably very basic and dumb questions.

1. I'm presuming doing this is not as simple as buying a barrel with 6.5mm bore and then using a .243 WSSM reamer to cut the chamber? I would guess there is a neck problem not dealt with.
2. Assuming answer to #1 is no, then I see that Pacific Tool & Die sell a Removeable Pilot Finish Reamer,957-704) for the 6.5-243 WSSM. Will it do both the barrel blank and my reloading dies? Are roughing reamers required or could you do one chamber with a finish reamer?
3. To make the reloading dies, would I have to start with a blank,I see PTD sell them as well)? Or, could one start with stock .243 WSSM dies and ream them to the wildcat?
4. What consideration do I need to make for the brass source. I'm thinking of necking up .243 WSSM brass, so I presume the brass thickness in the neck will reduce about 9% from the stock dimension?

I would not do this work myself, as I have limited machine tools, but wanted to find out how feasable it is before I start the search for a good gunsmith. My choices are probably very limited here in Canada, and I suspect I'm not going to find one set up to do this wildcat combination. Is it standard that the customer buys and keeps the reamers in this situation?

Thanks for any help you can provide,

Ron

 

[Dans40X]

Ron,
What action are you planning on using & is it trued??
You could make a few 'phone calls to inquire if smiths have a reamer on hand.
If so,ask what finish neck diameter/clearance is.
No,a finish reamer is not going to ream a 243WSSM sizing/seating die to 6.5mm as the dies are hardened in the manufacturing process.
Newlon makes die blanks as do a couple others.

I wildcatted the RSAUM case in 2003 to 6.5mm to push Sierra 155's @3200fps on a turn neck chambered Barnard Action/Krieger 30" 1:8.5"tw Bbl prone rifle built by Alan & Dan Warner of Warner Tool Co in Keene,N.H.-awesome rifle to say the least.
www.warner-tool.com

 

[RonAKA]

Thanks for the response. It would be fitted on a stock Remington 700 action. I thought I would have the gunsmith evaluate what could be done with it at the time of rebarreling. Yes, I wondered about the die being hardened.

Ron

 

[Bob3700]

Ron,

A shooting friend of mine had such a rifle made up for 1000 yd competition. He was shooting 142 gr SMKs at about 3250 fps.

The first bbl lasted 700 rds and was toast. The jury is out on the second bbl as far as useful rounds is concerned but no one is holding their breadth on it reaching 1K.

Bob

 

[BillK]

Bob 3700 your friend was probably shooting a 6.5wsm not a 6.5-243wssm. 3250 is as far as I know impossible or very dangerous in a 6.5wssm!!!!!

Ronaka- My 6.5-243wssm that I finished third in the world open with is done on a rem 700 short action. My first one I built for my daughter is done on a rem700 long action and is a switch barrel with a 7wsm as the second cartridge. My reamer was done by PTG and has a .300 neck. As far as I know you can get dies from redding that is where my sizer comes from and I use a custom made wilson for the seater. I believe the reamer for a die is smaller than the chamber reamer. BTW my reamer is carbide. My brass is the 243wssm winchester brass necked up. I anneal the brass before necking up to ease the operation. Mark King rifles on this page has a reamer. He also has my reamer at this moment because my heavy gun is there. He takes a while to get things done but is a great smith for accuracy stuff. My barrel is a Bartlein 1:8.5 5r on my world open gun and a 1:8 hart on my first gun. I like the Bartlein barrels and will probably do one on a 1:8 5r next time.

 

[RonAKA]

"Ron, A shooting friend of mine had such a rifle made up for 1000 yd competition. He was shooting 142 gr SMKs at about 3250 fps.

The first bbl lasted 700 rds and was toast. The jury is out on the second bbl as far as useful rounds is concerned but no one is holding their breadth on it reaching 1K. Bob"

Bob, thanks for the response. I have two 264WM's and one of them has a new barrel, so I know the issue. However, with reasonable loads this should be quite unlikely as the WSSM case is only 53 grains compared to the 82 for the 264mag. If it is as BillK suggests in his post a 270 WSM case, then it is around 79 grains or close to the 264WM, and in obvious barrel burner country. I'm trying to avoid that, as well as a belt on the cartridge.

Ron

 

[RonAKA]

BillK posted:

"Ronaka- My 6.5-243wssm that I finished third in the world open with is done on a rem 700 short action. My first one I built for my daughter is done on a rem700 long action and is a switch barrel with a 7wsm as the second cartridge. My reamer was done by PTG and has a .300 neck. As far as I know you can get dies from redding that is where my sizer comes from and I use a custom made wilson for the seater. I believe the reamer for a die is smaller than the chamber reamer. BTW my reamer is carbide. My brass is the 243wssm winchester brass necked up. I anneal the brass before necking up to ease the operation. Mark King rifles on this page has a reamer. He also has my reamer at this moment because my heavy gun is there. He takes a while to get things done but is a great smith for accuracy stuff. My barrel is a Bartlein 1:8.5 5r on my world open gun and a 1:8 hart on my first gun. I like the Bartlein barrels and will probably do one on a 1:8 5r next time."

Thanks for the response. Your comment about your daughter's gun caught my attention. I also am planning to convert a long action, the 700 in 264WM. I will keep my Browning Safari also in 264WM with a new barrel for hunting. Were there any extra issues with the long action? I understand weight will not be optimum, and also rigidity will not be what it could be. Did you have to open up the feed rails for the fatter cartridge body, or close them in at least further down the action to keep the cartridge in longer. Or, did you just convert to a single shot?

I see in another post on this cartridge that Federal brass is significantly cheaper than the Winchester. Is there an issue with using Federal -- assuming I can find it? My 264's have lived on 7mmRM Federals necked down, as 264 is hard to find.

I have been looking at Lilja barrels but will check out Bartlein as well. Been thinking I can potentially bring the weight in as a Sporter class with the right barrel.

Anyway thanks again for the comments. They are very helpful in getting me grounded in this new,for me) area.

Ron

 

[mikecr]

Ron
Winchester WSSM brass is very good, thats not a problem. Personally, I use the 25wssm brass and body die,for bumping). From my perspective, the biggest challenge to performance of this cartridge is brass thickness in the necks. With brass in-hand, you'll measure around .020 thick! Which reminds me, get the brass in-hand, and carefully measure it before doing anything.

I have a full reamer set,sizing,rough,finish) from PTG, and my version is slightly improved, and tight neck at .291.
My turned loaded necks measure .290

My Wilson seater die was chambered with my barrels. I think it was drilled, then finish reamed only.
I sent a few fireformed cases to JLC Precision and he made me a FL sizing-bushing neck die. He used only my finish reamer. I don't know how he does it, but assume he heats the die, while reaming it, and then it cools to desired dimensions. Anyway, he does a great job, and my sizing/seating has been perfect as far as I can measure. It is just enough, and no more.

I have reached +3200fps w/139Lapuas during load developement, but brass would not last long enough to be burning out any barrels with this. It does sound like a WSM/WSSM mix-up posted earlier. I settled at 3025fps from 28" Borders in 8.5tw

 

[malcarjeb]

What powder and how many grains are ya'll using? Primers? Sounds like a great little round.

 

[RonAKA]

BillK has posted his load here:

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/6mmbr/vpost?id=2645033

 

[BillK]

Ronaka-Federal brass is way soft. The winchester brass is good enough for me. My guns are single shot for competing at williamsport. It is funny that the gun I did for my daughter is a super tack driver. The only reason I didn't shoot that in the world open is because I didn't do all the smithing. The equipment list on the world open site is not correct. I just didn't change my info from what I had shot before. I chambered the barrel only for my daughters 6.5wssm. Mark King did the rest. He is a great guy and a great gunsmith!!!

 

[RonAKA]

MikeCR and BillyK, thanks again for your posts and further info. On the brass I see my local outlet lists the Winchester. I'm going to take a bit of time to digest it all.

Do you buy this method of "fitted neck" cases described at the link below? Says if you do it right you don't have to even neck resize?? He is quoting some dimension tolerances that would seem hard to machine to.

Fitted Neck Cases

Ron

 

[BillK]

Ron-On a chamber with a custom sized neck you will have to neck turn. The wssm neck is thick so turning is a must just for neck thickness sake. That is why I have a .300 neck chamber.I want my finished rounds to have a diameter of .297-.298.

 

[RonAKA]

I think I have this somewhat figured out. What I have concluded is that it would be better to use a 25WSSM case. And further that unless I've got my numbers wrong, the standard loaded neck diameter of the 25WSSM of 0.299" is very close to where I need to be for the 6.5mm wildcat?? This is one sketch I found for the 25WSSM:

If that is true, then it would seem I could use stock 25WSSM resizing and seating dies? The expander bulb on the sizer would have to be replaced with one for a 6.5mm bullet, and the sleeve in the seater would have to be reamed out with the chamber reamer. I was thinking of using Hornady New Dimension, as the seater has a sleeve, and also you can buy an add on Microjust seating stem. All together not too expensive.

So, then the sequence would be to get the Winchester 25WSSM brass, the Hornady dies, and a Forster neck turner. Then use the dies to resize a few cartridges and the turner to get the neck diameter to give a neck OD with bullet seated of .299 or perhaps a bit smaller depending on what the stock die gives me once the neck is turned down. Then last with those dimensions I would get a custom chamber reamer made by Pacific Tool and Gauge, which would be basically a 6.5-25WSSM, but dimensions adjusted slightly based on the die size and neck size decided on.

Does this sound like it would work? One minor hitch is how I will initially get a bullet seated to check measurements, as this will be before I have the chameber reamer to modify the seating die. But worst comes to worst just tap a bullet in backwards by hand.

Other options I looked at were Forster dies and using their $10 honing service to slightly open up a stock .25WSSM sizer, or going with a bushing bump style die. It would seem that the 25WSSM kit may even have the right size bushings in it, or if not I beleive they can be bought individually.

http://www.forsterproducts.com/Pages/precision_order.htm

The other option looked at was the JLC conversion described here.

http://www.6mmbr.com/catalog/item/1433308/892435.htm

Although I think that option leaves me without a deprimer. I see Lee sells a deprimer only die for $10, so perhaps with that.

Thoughts on the pros and cons of these various options? The attraction of the Hornady route is cost and in theory at least the local supplier has all that is needed in stock. While they handle Forster then don't carry the dies, and I would have to special order. They also add up to quite a bit more in cost, especially when you add in their precision seater.

Ron

 

[RonAKA]

Sorry, for the long previous post. In a nutshell I'm saying that I would make a custom chamber to fit an off the shelf die, rather than the more conventional other way around.

I checked some cases today for for my .264WM. Sized without an expander they measure about .287". Since the 25WSSM has a .299 spec for neck and the 264 is .298, I would expect a 25WSSM die would produce a non expanded neck OD of about .288". With a .002" interferance that would give me a loaded neck of .290". That leaves brass thickness in the neck at 0.013". Is that enough?

Ron

 

[BillK]

Ron-I have a friend that goes by the name 6.5fan aka Martin Dailey. He uses the 25wssm case on his 6.5wssm. He picked up a 25wssm die but for some strange reason would not work. It was a redding die though. He brought over a reamer an asked me to rework the die and I did. It works fine now. The redding die was really hard and I had to stuff a drill bit and then a reamer through it. It was a risky maneuver though doing what he wanted done. BTW Martin has done super well with his 6.5-25wssm. He won the 2005 world open with his!!!

 

[RonAKA]

BillK wrote:

"I like the Bartlein barrels and will probably do one on a 1:8 5r next time."

I'm curious as to why you would go to a 1:8?

Ron

 

[BillK]

Ron- As I have stated I have only shot the 1:8.5 bartlein barreled gun at 1000yds. It has shot superb. I have not shot the 1:8 hart barreled gun at 1000yds but at 100yds the hart barreled gun shoots groups that look like you poked a bullet through one hole 5 times. It has done it many times. With that said the hart barreled gun has a lighter contour also which makes me hesitate at shooting it at williamsport with the long ten shot strings they shoot there. I believe the 1:8 twist barrel is the way to go in the 6.5 arena if you are going to shoot 140gr bullets. I have always had better luck spinning the bullets a little faster. The 1:8 barrel does group a tiny bit better than the 1:8.5 barrel at 100yds. The finish on the bartlein barrel that I have is far superior inside and out to any other barrel i have had which include hart and kreiger. That is why I make the recommendations that I make. I believe that a 1:8 bartlein would be even beter than the 1:8 hart.