55 grain V-Max .223 Rem

[Someoldguy]

I have a Savage Model 12 in .223 Rem, 1 in 9 twist, 26" barrel.

I loaded some test rounds with H335 and 55 grain V-Max. COAL was .015" jump. Shot them over my Chrony in 5 shot groups. I wasn't very happy with the targets. 3 touching or nearly so and a couple of fliers which would blow the group out to 1 1/2" to 2". Started at 25.4 grains, working up in .2 grain increments. At 26.4 grains I was running close to 3350fps and the primers started looking flat, so I decided that was too hot. ES was still upwards of 75. Not happy there, either.

So, I decided to double check my jam COAL. Used black marker on the bullet and found that I never get any land engraving. All the contact is at the 'ring' right at the bearing surface. I just recently stripped all the carbon from this barrel and my bore scope tells me this isn't a carbon ring problem.

Anyone else notice this? Thinking I'm going to have to do a chamber cast and see what the measurements are . . . (?)

 

[nmkid]

I have the same rifle, unfired at this point. I was planning to use the same bullet and powder starting at 24.0 grains.

 

[retired]

ok i'll join the club. i have one too.
what scope do you have on it ?
my 2 cents worth is you need to spent as much on the scope as the rifle cost.
i just did a ladder at 200 yds with imr8208 and see a couple of spots that look worth testing .
i was shooting berger 55's so we are all in the same park.
i found the lands at 2.260 coal..exact max for 223.
so things to look at:
scope, mounting
bench rest equipment and skill
brass ?
scale..how did you get to 0.2 ?
wind indicators ?

 

[Texas10]

I have much better luck with IMR 3031 and 50, 52, 53, and 55 grain bullets. Heavier than that and I switch to IMR 8208 XBR

 

[Someoldguy]

Ok, I can see that I didn't communicate what I'm trying to discover well at all.

What I'm trying to discover is if others have noticed that the bearing surface, or very near it contacts the edge if the freebore well before the lands contact the bullet ogive. I don't see how such a condition can promote accuracy. I probably need to find a bullet with a different profile?

Sorry for my improperly phrased question and any confusion caused.

 

[243winxb]

I have not seen any. Bullets seated nose first, to measure where the rifling is now. Target fired with the 3x9 scope as rifle came from the factory, after break in and load workup.

 

[josebd]

Ok, I can see that I didn't communicate what I'm trying to discover well at all.

What I'm trying to discover is if others have noticed that the bearing surface, or very near it contacts the edge if the freebore well before the lands contact the bullet ogive. I don't see how such a condition can promote accuracy. I probably need to find a bullet with a different profile?

Sorry for my improperly phrased question and any confusion caused.

http://home.mindspring.com/~45-70-350/another_coal_gauge.htm

 

[Rsadams]

Try some Sierra bullets....

 

[josebd]

I would start at .020 from the lands and go from there,also try varget or benchmark,also blc2 or w748

 

[josebd]

Yep Sierra 52 bthp,varget 26.5

 

[243winxb]

I have a Savage Model 12 in .223 Rem, 1 in 9 twist, 26" barrel.

I loaded some test rounds with H335 and 55 grain V-Max. COAL was .015" jump. Shot them over my Chrony in 5 shot groups. I wasn't very happy with the targets. 3 touching or nearly so and a couple of fliers which would blow the group out to 1 1/2" to 2". Started at 25.4 grains, working up in .2 grain increments. At 26.4 grains I was running close to 3350fps and the primers started looking flat, so I decided that was too hot. ES was still upwards of 75. Not happy there, either.

So, I decided to double check my jam COAL. Used black marker on the bullet and found that I never get any land engraving. All the contact is at the 'ring' right at the bearing surface. I just recently stripped all the carbon from this barrel and my bore scope tells me this isn't a carbon ring problem.

Anyone else notice this? Thinking I'm going to have to do a chamber cast and see what the measurements are . . . (?)

Looks like maximun is 23.2 grs ?? Unless i have old/wrong internet data.

 

[Someoldguy]

Looks like maximun is 23.2 grs ?? Unless i have old/wrong internet data.

View attachment 1040607

My Sierra manual stated a max of 26 I believe, and 27.2 as I recall in my Lyman manual and I was past the COAL. Can't cite exact figures as I am not at home presently. I stopped as soon as I saw pressure signs and the velocity seemed high.
I was trying to get the ES down until it became obvious something else was causing it.
That is why I started looking at my seating depth/COAL again.
I think that makes sense . . . . (?)

 

[retired]

i have said it many times here, i always start at the lands if i can.

you say you get full contact vs land impressions. i suppose it is possible,
but i would go back and re check...using a much lighter touch.
like i said i found the lands right at 2.26x

 

[Someoldguy]

i have said it many times here, i always start at the lands if i can.

you say you get full contact vs land impressions. i suppose it is possible,
but i would go back and re check...using a much lighter touch.
like i said i found the lands right at 2.26x

That's why I think I'm going to have to make a chamber cast and take some measurements. I don't see how a bullet has much chance to launch straight if the bullet contacts the edge of the ogive right at the transition from ogive to bearing surface and no land contact evident.
How far us the bullet travelling down the freebore before the ogive contacts the lands, and how concentric to the bore is it at that point with this bullet/barrel combination?

Heck, I donno.

I thought if someone on the internet had encountered such an issue before, I would have the highest odds of finding that guy here.

And if I am mis-informed or mis-understand bullet launch, I'd like someone to straighten me out.

Hard enough to problem solve anyway. Without understanding the way the thing works, it's nearly impossible and certainly infinately more difficult.

 

[Rsadams]

I may be the only one here that does this... But I use the data from the the bullet manufacturers.. Hornady bullet , Hornady manual... I started after useing a different manual one time and started in the middle of the charge selection , then when I ran it across my crono it was already at the speed of a factory bullet from the same gun.... As you can see from 243s post listing from the hornady manual your over what Hornady says is max with their bullet... You can never really have to many manuals or data....

We all know the books are a starting point are are normally conservative... But just like there is a difference in a Sierra 168 smk and a Sierra 168 tmk in bearing surface , Sierra says back it down some when changing from the old smk to the new tmk bullets... Always way on the side of safety...

Just my 2 cents on the subject...

 

[mic2377]

I just wanted to chime in and say that the starting load is not out of the question, although it is hot. The Hodgdon data I used showed a max of 25.0 gr, and I load most of my bulk ammo with 24.5 gr. Accuracy was best at this node.

It is odd that ES did not improve with increasing charge weight. It has been my experience that H335 generally works best loaded on the hot side.

Also of note I have had serious fliers from inconsistent 223 brass. The 223's small case volume and wide variety of case thicknesses and weights can be all over the place. I didn't see it noted as to what brass you were using.

Lastly have you considered a magnum primer, IE a CCI-450? Some of the ball powders shoot better with a hotter primer.

 

[Rsadams]

I just wanted to chime in and say that the starting load is not out of the question, although it is hot. The Hodgdon data I used showed a max of 25.0 gr, and I load most of my bulk ammo with 24.5 gr. Accuracy was best at this node.

It is odd that ES did not improve with increasing charge weight. It has been my experience that H335 generally works best loaded on the hot side.

Also of note I have had serious fliers from inconsistent 223 brass. The 223's small case volume and wide variety of case thicknesses and weights can be all over the place. I didn't see it noted as to what brass you were using.

Lastly have you considered a magnum primer, IE a CCI-450? Some of the ball powders shoot better with a hotter primer.

Just FYI I believe the Sierra manual has data for the .223 and magnum primers..

EDIT.... SORRY I meant the Speer manual....

 

[Someoldguy]

Allright. I am back at home now and have access to my manuals and notes.

Lyman lists a charge range of 24.3g to 27.0g of H335. Remington 7 1/2 primers. COAL 2.260"

Sierra lists a charge range of 23g to 27.5g of H335. Remington 7 1/2 primers. COAL 2.260".
Sierra ALSO lists loading data for .223AR which is SIGNIFICANTLY less than that for the .223 bolt action at 23.6g to 25.7g of H335.

I loaded 25.4g up to 26.6 grains of H335. WSR primers. Winchester 1x fireformed brass. COAL 2.315".

I observed what I believed to be pressure signs at 26.6g and stopped.

I do not believe that I subjected the rifle to excessive pressures, but without testing equipment, I can not be certain.

I DO NOT recommend or endorse any of the above load data. It is what I had at my disposal and what I chose to use. Any and every one will need to determine for him/her self what is appropriate for their own equipment and circumstances.

Fair enough?

 

[Someoldguy]

I also observe on my copy of SAAMI specifications for the .223 Remington that the freebore area diameter is to be .224" When I measured 10 of the Hornady V-Max bullets, I found the diameter to range from .2242" to .2244". I find it difficult to believe that .0004" will cause a bullet to lodge in a .224" freebore, provided it was originally cut at .224". Particularly after the rifle has been fired multiple times. I can not say precisely how many, because I purchased it used. I myself have fired approximately 200 rounds through it.

SO. I'm back to a chamber cast. It appears the freebore in this barrel was cut undersized.

Lucky me.

 

[dickn52]

My mod 12 loves the 52 ELD's.