.50 cal bans at private clubs

[dragman]

I just bought a Barrett M82A1. didn't do my homework and 2 out of the 3 clubs I belong too don't allow them. I completely understand the reasoning to be honest, but it's a dangerous slope in my opinion. A safe well trained person is not a problem the "idiot person" is the one who causes the problems. I honestly see a slug gun being equally problematic as far as beating up the back stops and possible ricochet's with .50 and larger heavy projectiles. either way I don't even know if I am keeping my new $11000 toy since it's gonna be a pain to shoot it.

 

[LHSmith]

We did sound experiments and found that once someone was a short distance away, the .50 wasn't any louder than any other rifle. The rifles all sounded the same along the perimeter of the property. Penetration tests into barrels of compacted berm sand proved that the FMJ 750 grain .50 didn't penetrate any farther than a FMJ 147 grain .308 Win. round, actually a little less sonmetimes. Penetration was less than 24" with both rounds. We didn't have any AP ammo to try.

I designed the backstops for one of my local clubs ......they didn't think they needed them so they didn't have any. I researched and found mil specs on range design (document DA PAM 385-63 dated 2003). There are tables with various backstop mediums for common military rounds. For example a .50 cal requires a minimum thickness of 66 " of undisturbed compact earth for complete protection, while a 7.62 requires 52".......BUT these values are for single round impacts, not automatic fire. What you really have to watch out for is "tunneling" in the backstop in anything but dry sand.
Not too many 50 BMG's are used here in eastern PA, so they leave kinda a unique "fingerprint" which would be harder to deny they came from a local club range IF they allowed them. If the NRA is advising clubs to prohibit 50 BMG's ...well that kind of say's a lot. Of course there are range designs using steel baffles that would MAYBE eliminate projectiles leaving club grounds, BUT whose going to pay for them....you will put a lot of clubs under if an incident leads to the local authorities shutting down the range until an NRA approved range is built. I am sure it is a real pleasure to shoot with a network of steel beams and steel plates overhead.

 

[LHSmith]

We did sound experiments and found that once someone was a short distance away, the .50 wasn't any louder than any other rifle. The rifles all sounded the same along the perimeter of the property.

We'll I'd say most people can tell the difference between a varmint caliber and an Ultra-Mag. Ever hear of a decibel meter? What about the poor souls who are shooting adjacent benches? ........they'll probably pack up and vacate the range after the first shot, then complain at the next meeting.

 

[Taildrag15X]

They are banned at our local NRA/CMP ranges due to safety and noise, along with "assault weapons", steel ammo, and now anything that is not New York State legal.....it wasn't always like this but times change in 30 years with more available to anyone with a credit card and no common sense.

Don't forget the most publicized 50BMG "accident" from 2008......

From the archives at Benchrest Central:

http://benchrest.com/archive/index.php/t-57053.html

 

[effendude]

We did sound experiments and found that once someone was a short distance away, the .50 wasn't any louder than any other rifle. The rifles all sounded the same along the perimeter of the property.

We'll I'd say most people can tell the difference between a varmint caliber and an Ultra-Mag. Ever hear of a decibel meter? What about the poor souls who are shooting adjacent benches? ........they'll probably pack up and vacate the range after the first shot, then complain at the next meeting.

If you read my post, that was why the club took action to begin with. It isn't any fun to be anywhere near a .50 when it is being shot. Let me be specific about the sound, and this was all subjective. The test was done blindly by our board of directors and other interested members. We shot a ported and braked .50BMG, a .300RUM, a 308 Win and a .375 H&H from both the benchrest area and also our KD ranges. From more than about 150 yards away, the group couldn't tell which order the rifles were fired in. The audience took stations around the club from 100 yard away on a pistol range to several areas around the property perimeter. Complaints from neighbors are also subjective. We limited the .50 to the KD range for several reasons, the first being the heigth and depth of the berm which is a hillside of very fine sand. Despite the penetration tests, we are aware of the tunneling and impact pocket issues. Second, the firing lines of the KD range are the most centrally located on our 300 acres. The KD range is also 300 yards away from any other range so other shooters are not inconvenienced by the noise. Perceived noise in the pits or near the impact area was also indistinguishable between the rounds from more than ~100 yards away.

My club was the first club in MN to meet current NRA standards for berm heigth, construction and operation. We had a team of NRA Range engineers conduct a survey and review of both the property and policies in place. We made considerable changes to our berm heigths on several ranges as part of meeting those standards.
The engineers reviewed our .50BMG policy as part of their survey. Their opinion was we had made reasonable efforts to investigate and control the potential problems associated with the round. Again, my club is a private one and only members who own a .50 are allowed to shoot them, not guests, nor guest owned .50's. We spend countless hours training and educating our members as to their responsibilities while using the ranges, when pistol, rifles, rimfires or whatever. Our location is completely surrounded by residential structures.

I am not defending the .50 blindly and I believe every range must make their own decisions as to what is safe. But, and it is a big one, as long as the round isn't banned from ownership or use, I will defend the right for those who have one to use it safely and responsibly. I don't want one either. BTW, I am the guy who has gotten "The call from the police" in the past, and over the last 10 years have busted my a$$ to make the range safer as well as meet the NRA standards which incidently, the state of MN has adopted as the state gun range standards. I believe most other states have done the same.

Scott

 

[people]

What is surprising are the guys who will at a empty range will look at your big rifle and take the bench next to you. Then be surprised when you tap off a big mamajamma.

 

[queen_stick]

The test was done blindly by our board of directors and other interested members. We shot a ported and braked .50BMG, a .300RUM, a 308 Win and a .375 H&H from both the benchrest area and also our KD ranges. From more than about 150 yards away, the group couldn't tell which order the rifles were fired in...

that's surprising test results... I wouldn't have expected that.
I'd love to be involved in a test like that to hear it for my self. Sounds like fun!

 

[VaniB]

What is surprising are the guys who will at a empty range will look at your big rifle and take the bench next to you. Then be surprised when you tap off a big mamajamma.

Oh, I thought that only happens to me. LOL I took a day off of work one day to go to the range and pick from 30 open benches, and in comes strolling some guy 45 minutes later with a muzzle braked 30 Herret TC pistol who sits 7 feet away from me. After 30 minutes of that I told the guy off so his day would be as spoiled as was mine. Don't think I'd want to sit next to a guy with a muzzle braked 50 cal varmint rifle.

 

[Area Man]

After 30 minutes of that I told the guy off so his day would be as spoiled as was mine.

I might have tried: "Hello sir. Great day for shooting, huh? You probably don't realize how loud your TC pistol is when you are right next to me. Would you mind moving to a bench farther away? Thank you."

 

[yenak]

I believe they call it LIABILITY

 

[VaniB]

After 30 minutes of that I told the guy off so his day would be as spoiled as was mine.

I might have tried: "Hello sir. Great day for shooting, huh? You probably don't realize how loud your TC pistol is when you are right next to me. Would you mind moving to a bench farther away? Thank you."

With all due respect to your thesis about how to reciprocate with others in a polite society, I find the majority of people in the real world are usually thoughtless and self-absorbed in themselves, and they will often become quite indignant by a stranger having the tenacity or nerve to inform them of what they should or shouldn't be doing.....even when said politely with a smile. In your scenario, abnoxious children would behave in a restaurant, and strangers out in public would stop using foul language in front of you and your family, simply via polite request. I suppose the next time this happens at the firing range, I will employ this method of politely trying to explain this to the arriving shooter, rather then suffer another 45 minutes of muzzle brake blast agony and assured anger. But, the chances are good that I will be the one having to pick up and move my stuff away from him, and either way, bad feelings are caused. Wouldn't it be nice if people just thought about others.

 

[XTR]

ORSA doesn't allow them. Combine noise (the range is actually in the city limits) and safety concerns and it's pretty much a no brainer. Think about it, how long before some knuckle head launches an incendiary, HE or an API up and over the ridge behind us and into the DOE reservation? Or sets fire to the range?

The flagpole at the berm on the 1000 yard range has more holes in it than I can count now.

It has nothing to do with anti gun and everything to do with safety and liability at most places.

 

[Area Man]

After 30 minutes of that I told the guy off so his day would be as spoiled as was mine.

I might have tried: "Hello sir. Great day for shooting, huh? You probably don't realize how loud your TC pistol is when you are right next to me. Would you mind moving to a bench farther away? Thank you."

With all due respect to your thesis about how to reciprocate with others in a polite society, I find the majority of people in the real world are usually thoughtless and self-absorbed in themselves, and they will often become quite indignant by a stranger having the tenacity or nerve to inform them of what they should or shouldn't be doing.....even when said politely with a smile. In your scenario, abnoxious children would behave in a restaurant, and strangers out in public would stop using foul language in front of you and your family, simply via polite request. I suppose the next time this happens at the firing range, I will employ this method of politely trying to explain this to the arriving shooter, rather then suffer another 45 minutes of muzzle brake blast agony and assured anger. But, the chances are good that I will be the one having to pick up and move my stuff away from him, and either way, bad feelings are caused. Wouldn't it be nice if people just thought about others.

I'm not going to debate with you the best approach. Just saying what I would have tried instead of telling somebody off.

 

[Patch700]

The flagpole at the berm on the 1000 yard range has more holes in it than I can count now.

.....you have got to be kidding no?

 

[BountyHunter]

Even a 308win can get you in trouble.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/09/understanding-how-rifle-angle-alters-long-range-trajectories/

And that is half of what the military use for richocet zones downrange. Plus you can have side deflections. Most civilian ranges do not near enough land to capture a round of any caliber IF it goes over the berm and off to the sides. The 50 caliber is about 7500 meters.

I saw a rounds leave an M60 range (308).. The closest target was 250 meters, the rounds came back 180 degrees, crossed the firing line, went 400 meters further and penetrated a metal wall of a warehouse. We found 4 on the floor. We knew exactly when it happened as there were workers in the warehouse and heard them. There were no metal targets, rocks etc on the range, but somehow these bullets did a 180 and went a minimum of 650 meters back with enough force to penetrate metal walls.

 

[vtmarmot]

If you want to have the club's neighbors put their attorneys on speed dial, touch off a few .50 BMG rounds. Those suckers are LOUD. I would not be on a range when one is in use because I value what is left of my hearing. In fact, I don't want to be within 1/2 mile of one.

I know there's a good argument that we should all hang together or hang separately, but, at least in populated areas, you have to have a little consideration for political reality. There's plenty of anti-gun people with big bucks out there that would love to use the noise of a .50 BMG to get a club shut down.

And yes, I do agree with the NRA that there's no way to contain a .50 BMG bullet. I went to their range officer seminar and they were pretty convincing. You certainly can't say that the NRA is anti-gun, and you can't say that they don't understand politics.

 

[varmintshooter]

Interesting topic. I know of clubs that only allow rimfire, clubs that only allow shotguns and clubs that allow up to 30 cal. If I owned my own range I don't know where I would draw the line. I am on the east and shoot small cals. so I would most likely not allow the 50's due to the population (and idiots ). I have seen a lot of damage to ranges ( backers and supports ) because people don't know better or just don't care. If I was out west where the berm was a mountain 5 or 10 miles away and the next house or shooter for that matter was 30 miles away I may feel different. I am not a fan of the big boomers but I am not against them. Not all clubs will accommodate everyone or every cal. People will have to find clubs with like minded people. My father in his later years didn't see the need for "assault weapons" my response was that people with "assault weapons" may not see the need for him to have his handguns. We must all stick together and remember that safety must come first. I don't think the ban is anti-gun but may be anti cal. Sure hope we can work this out and all get along.

 

[VaniB]

If you want to have the club's neighbors put their attorneys on speed dial, touch off a few .50 BMG rounds. Those suckers are LOUD. I would not be on a range when one is in use because I value what is left of my hearing. In fact, I don't want to be within 1/2 mile of one.

I know there's a good argument that we should all hang together or hang separately, but, at least in populated areas, you have to have a little consideration for political reality. There's plenty of anti-gun people with big bucks out there that would love to use the noise of a .50 BMG to get a club shut down.

And yes, I do agree with the NRA that there's no way to contain a .50 BMG bullet. I went to their range officer seminar and they were pretty convincing. You certainly can't say that the NRA is anti-gun, and you can't say that they don't understand politics.

I agree with you. Normally without the support coming from others like yourself and/or the NRA, I would be the odd man out and be reluctant to post my opinion that certain concerns and precautions for a 50BMG are in order. I have learned long ago that you don't suggest even minimal common sense regulation or safety measures with ANYTHING that goes bang......and I do mean "ANYTHING"!! There are those in our 2nd amendment fraterity that believe it would be perfectly normal to walk down the aisles at Walmart open carrying their Glock, like it wouldn't frighten every other soccer Mom accross America and turn the public against us. Many in the same crowd believe that anyone who can legally purchase a Marlin 30-30 should also be able to purchase a fully automatic BAR over the counter at a Cabella's with their driver's license and American Express card because "it's their God Given 2nd Amendment right". Their best argument is to give you a quote from Ben Franklin.