45-70 with 500 grain nosler solids in a trapdoor?

[Broncoguy27]

I'm going on a Bison hunt, and I want to use my 45-70 1873 clone. I can't find any data to load the nosler 500 grain jacketed solids in it. I called nosler and they have nothing over 300 grains and won't discuss it. Has anyone loaded these? If you have, what was your start?
I have approximately 9 different rifles I can use, I have a ton of other bullets for the 1873 clone. I'd like to use this gun with these bullets.
Thank you!!!

 

[JRanum]

I'm going on a Bison hunt, and I want to use my 45-70 1873 clone. I can't find any data to load the nosler 500 grain jacketed solids in it. I called nosler and they have nothing over 300 grains and won't discuss it. Has anyone loaded these? If you have, what was your start?
I have approximately 9 different rifles I can use, I have a ton of other bullets for the 1873 clone. I'd like to use this gun with these bullets.
Thank you!!!

I cannot help you with that particular bullet, but having shot a buffalo with a 45/70, and seeing 3 others shot I can say they are not hard to kill. A cast 300 or 400 grainer at 1100fps was plenty enough to put down the ones I saw. Not what you were looking to hear, but thought I'd throw it out there in case your equating the size of a buffalo with difficulty in killing.

 

[dhagerty40]

if it is the Nosler 500 gr solid, SKU number: 28455, you do know that bullet is a .474 diameter bullet designed for use in the 470 Nitro Express. a 45-70 has a diameter of .458. Nosler shows the heaviest bullet that is a solid for the 45-70 is a 458 gr

 

[rockrat]

Hodgdon reloading center is your friend. Only go to 485 gr slugs, but they have a trapdoor section

 

[XTR]

I'm going on a Bison hunt, and I want to use my 45-70 1873 clone. I can't find any data to load the nosler 500 grain jacketed solids in it. I called nosler and they have nothing over 300 grains and won't discuss it. Has anyone loaded these? If you have, what was your start?
I have approximately 9 different rifles I can use, I have a ton of other bullets for the 1873 clone. I'd like to use this gun with these bullets.
Thank you!!!

The trap door is your problem. You have to keep the pressure down. Get a copy of the latest Lymans manual, it has a complete section on then trapdoor. I’m not at home right now but I’m pretty sure its got loads for up to a 405.

If I recall correctly 405 loads for an 1873 are around 1100 FPS. I would not shoot a jacketed solid or any solid other than solid lead from a trap door the velocities are going to be very low and you will get zero expansion from something that’s not designed for that

 

[SQ54]

From Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, Fourth Edition:
.45-70 Government (for 1873 Springfield)
Lyman 457125, 500gr., COAL 2.835”, 25.0 gr. 5744, 1088fps.

this is their accuracy load.

 

[snert]

The trap door is your problem. You have to keep the pressure down. Get a copy of the latest Lymans manual, it has a complete section on then trapdoor. I’m not at home right now but I’m pretty sure its got loads for up to a 405.

If I recall correctly 405 loads for an 1873 are around 1100 FPS. I would not shoot a jacketed solid or any solid other than solid lead from a trap door the velocities are going to be very low and you will get zero expansion from something that’s not designed for that

This is very good information.

Your potential choice of a solid in a trapdoor is a bad juju mix. The trapdoor is a design from 1873 and as such, even though yours is a modern clone, it should be loaded with lead, and BP. This will soften the whole "boom" process and still put enough horsepower (bison power?) downrange to cleanly take a "buff".

If you can't pour your own, get some lead bullets of proper design (up to 500 grain in the 45-70 RIFLE, 405 grains in the carbine) from a reputable bullet maker. Stay away from the solid copper bullet.

 

[DirtySteve]

I would not shoot anything but lead bullets and Black Powder in a Trapdoor... Which is the reason they would not talk to you about it... Not safe...

Also learn to paper patch and be one of the cool guys..

 

[Broncoguy27]

I cannot help you with that particular bullet, but having shot a buffalo with a 45/70, and seeing 3 others shot I can say they are not hard to kill. A cast 300 or 400 grainer at 1100fps was plenty enough to put down the ones I saw. Not what you were looking to hear, but thought I'd throw it out there in case your equating the size of a buffalo with difficulty in killing.

Thank you very much. I can run 405s no problem.
The only issue is I got it in my head that I wanted to use the monolithic solids and I may not be able to.

 

[Broncoguy27]

I would not shoot anything but lead bullets and Black Powder in a Trapdoor... Which is the reason they would not talk to you about it... Not safe...

Also learn to paper patch and be one of the cool guys..

I have a trap door clone, and it's safe up to 28000psi. I have run around 18000psi regularly in it, with published charges of smokeless powder. It does fine and I have taken several deer with 300 grain Hornady jacketed hollow points.
I have no interest whatsoever in black powder and paper patching. It's cool you do it, just not for me.

 

[snert]

No question jacketed and smokeless works, especially on clone rifles. But an original should best be run with lead. And there are great resources (buffalo Bore is a great place to start)

For his stated purpose, I think a lead bullet is the way to go. I too shoot 405 and 300 jacketed with smokeless in my trapdoor, but true performance comes by going back to old school loads. It was just plain good with lead.

 

[dellet]

Not familiar with the bullets, pretty familiar with a 45-70 and trapdoor’s.

Lots of things to consider, but which bullet are you considering, the solid or the jacketed?

I'm going on a Bison hunt, and I want to use my 45-70 1873 clone. I can't find any data to load the nosler 500 grain jacketed solids in it.

A 500 grain brass solid will be a very long bullet, basically the length of a 600 grain cast lead, so it might not even stabilize. Brass has a density of about 80% lead. So two bullets of the shape shape, the Brass will weigh 80% of the cast.

The Nosler 458 solid is 1.530”, a 500 grain cast is closer to 1.300” depending on the shape. So there will be a lot of case capacity lost. You can add to that poor bullet design for a 45-70 to complicate things.

The pressure/crimp groove on the Nosler appears pretty far back on the bullet. Probably because of the generous free bore of the 458 Lott chamber. The 45-70 is basically “0” free bore. So most likely you will need to seat that bullet even deeper to keep it out of the lands. More case capacity lost.

Now you have a combination of low case capacity, long bearing surface, and hard bullet features that will drive pressures up, in a pressure challenged chamber. Probably resulting in lower than hoped for velocity, in an already velocity challenged cartridge.

The 500 grain partition, will split the difference between the solid and a cast. But again there are design issues. If you are expecting expansion from the partition, adequate velocity probably won’t be achieved.

Accurate powder has data for bullets up to 500 grains with both low and medium pressure loads.

 

[wboggs]

There is no way you need jacketed solids in your trapdoor 45-70. Use a good hard cast bullet and it will kill the buffalo with ease. Read the advice others have given you. Use cast bullets.

 

[JSH]

^^^^^^^^
The 405 cast and a smokeless powder will drop your bison, as long as you do your part.
There is vast amounts of data for your purpose. You may be able to go to a 450 grain bullet as well.
The solid coppers were meant more for African game, breaking down large bones. Not down playing bison, but not a Cape buffalo by any means.

 

[wboggs]

^^^^^^^^
The 405 cast and a smokeless powder will drop your bison, as long as you do your part.
There is vast amounts of data for your purpose. You may be able to go to a 450 grain bullet as well.
The solid coppers were meant more for African game, breaking down large bones. Not down playing bison, but not a Cape buffalo by any means.

I would like to mention that a hard cast bullet will also kill a cape buffalo.

 

[JSH]

I would like to mention that a hard cast bullet will also kill a Cape buffalo.

Agreed for sure. I would guess we still have a long way to go with jacketed bullets to catch up with the number of game taken with cast bullets. Mr Baker took a ship load of large varmints with a front stuffer and round balls of appropriate size.

 

[longbow]

Stick with the cast bullet,the gun was made for that,go original.Play the part,black powder 500 gr. Govt . I think our old Buffalo load for hunting was 45 gr. Goex,5 gr. 4227,500 gr cast govt bullet. The duplex load for hunting blew out the BP and kept barrel cleaner. I prefer straight BP,but to each his own. The last elk I took at 137 yds with a 405 gr,total pass thru and down he went,iron tang sights.

 

[FNSafari]

Lyman used to make a mould that cast a 482 grain gas check bullet. My 44th Lyman reloading handbook lists the bullet for use in the Trapdoor Springfield, and I quote:

Unique 9 gr for 892fps up to 13 gr for 1114
2400 20 gr for 1104 up to 23 gr for 1236
IMR 4227 27 gr for 1298 up to 32 gr for 1438

I would prolly stay in the 1200 fps range if you can find the bullet

They also list loads for a 552 gr gas check bullet 462560 with top velocity of 1215 with 25 gr of IMR 4227.
My 48th Edition lists loads for two different 500 gr bullets along with a 535 gr bullet. Get a copy!

I am not recommending any of these just telling you what is in my 44th Edition circa 1967. Get a current Lyman rifle load manual!!

 

[rockrat]

5744 might work for you if you go with cast. I shoot a 420gr cast with 4759 (long discontinued but I think 5744 is close) with a cardboard wad on top of the powder, then grits in the case to when I seat a bullet, it compresses the grits about 1/8". Kind of like loading black powder. Velocity is a bit over 1300fps and one lucky day I shot an 8" group @300yds with origional open sights. This load shoots well in my 1884 Trapdoor and my '74 Sharps clone.

 

[wboggs]

I am delighted to see all the interest in the .45-70 using cast bullets. The Paul Jones 535gr money bullet was a favorite in metallic shilouette matches. I tried hunting with it but the sights were almost impossible to see when the light was poor and I never got to shoot any game with it. It would slam down the heavy metallic targets at 200-500 meters.