.45-110 BPCR... in a modern bolt action?

[ConnorExum]

Has anyone tried to build a BPCR rifle like .45-110 in a modern bolt action rifle layout? I want to see what is the actual best performance one could achieve with it?

 

[Adam in WI]

I think brass is going to be the weak link. You're probably going to be in 458 Win Mag bracket. Sounds like a fun project, but what's the goal. Max performance with the case using smokeless? Bolt gun accuracy with black?

If it were me I'd look for a rifle in 458 Lott and explore it's abilities loaded with heavy lead and black powder.

 

[ConnorExum]

I know cartridges are the weak link. But the goal is to load it up with just black powder and hand cast bullets to see what exactly is the maximum effective accuracy of these old cartridges is potentially. So, I would build it basically like a bench rest rifle.

specs: 34 inch straight fluted barrel with a target crown and diameter of 1.250 probably a pac-nor super match in stainless.

the action is the question... I am not sure if controlled round feeding or push feeding would be the best for this big rimmed cartridge.

The stock fully adjustable with free floating barrel.

I need to make a 300-400 MOA adjustable mount for a 5-25Ki5 scope so I can reach out to 1500 yards.

obviously this is a science project and well I have a thing for BPCR rifles and have a C. Sharps 1875 target sport rifle in .45-110 with a 30 inch barrel ordered. That got me thinking what is the absolute theoritical accuracy of this type of cartridge using new

 

[XTR]

I'll be surprised if you improve much over a Sharps if you shoot the Holy Black. The big difference will be a floated barrel in a one piece stock as opposed to the usual BPCR 2 piece stocks and the ability to hold hard in a rest w/o flexing the barrel.

The torque is a big factor if you are going to try to shoot it off of a rest. Anyone who has never launched a 535 gr slug down the tube you've got a bit of a surprise coming. It's not a free recoil friendly reaction.

You say you have a thing for BPCRs, how much have you shot them?
Are you planning paper patched or grease grooves?
And the follow on to that, what chamber are you using? What reamer design?
What bullet are you planning to cast for this?

There is way more to getting them to shoot with cast bullets than there is to pushing a Berger into a bottle necked cartridge. Getting your casting right is over half of your quest. If you've done it then I don't need to tell you what you've got to do, if you haven't you have a bit of a learning curve ahead of you.

I simpler cheaper experiment might be to get in a Siamese Mauser in 45-70.

 

[357Mag]

Connor -

Howdy !

If you can bear with me, I’ll get around to my point !

IMHO-
Since the project is important enough to you, you’ll find the brass.

The big decision, is the action. I feel compelled to ask....are you sure it simply must be a bolt gun ? I certainly understand the thought behind using a bolt action as a key component of a “BR” rifle . At the same time.... you mention whether control round feed; or not. That seems to indicate some wiggle room on action choice, as......a no-kiddin short-range bench gun is classically a single shot. By extension then, a single shot capability does not itself require a particular action type.

To me, an additional factor is.... just how good a trigger can be had on the rifle ( action choice ) ?

I am doing a similar project, but based on the .35 Remington cartridge.
When Imstarted our, I used a new CT-made Marlin M-336 XLR that escaped the factory w/ a 1.5oz ( yes ounce ) trigger. All I wanted the rifle for was accuracy/target work, and not for field use; so the trigger was a blessing ! I have always shot a 2oz trigger on my bolt action varmint/target rifle’s, so I am quite accustomed to them. My initial goal was 5/8” 5-shot groups @ 100yd.

I ended up w/ a 5- shot best group 7/16”... which included a 3-shot subgroup of .250”.... 2 shots going wide because I misread the wind flag ! Aaaakkk ! But, I wanted to keep shooting my .35 Rem handloads using the single shot method, which is a bit unhandy when shooting a lever gun.

I am now migrating my .35 Remington “ benchrest” project over to a new CVA Hunter .35 Remington. The factory trigger pull is pretty decent, albeit I intend to try and reduce pull wt. I like the idea of having a readily-accessible breech/chamber.

With single shot break actions ( and some other single shot actions ), what needs to be addressed is the potential for vertical stringing.

What is did was make an adapter from an extruded aluminum tube, that mounts the barrel inside..... and fits into a quad rail on the outside. My idea is that the quad rail serves as an “ exoskeleton “.... accepting any verticals loads on it from the bi-pod; and also serving as a mount for the scope bases/rings/scope.

I have not yet been to the range w/ my new .35 Remington “BR” rifle, their having only recently re-opened. I do hope to do so, soon !

Anyways.... just wanted so give you some food for thought.

For a bolt action that can accept the rim diam you have in mind, perhaps a BRNO Mauser ? Not saying a M-700 would not be workable.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[357Mag]

Connor -

Some pics attached, below....

My . 35 Remington “ neckless “ wildcat experiment. .35 calibre 195grSPBT patched w/ DYMO nylon label maker tape. Not shot for groups, yet.

My home made breech seating tool.

My XLR blurry image showing an automotive fluid bottle adapter impressed into use as a see-through “ rod guide “ ( clear tubing visible in load port ).

The XLR on the bench. Homemade fwd barrel block/ bi-pod mount seen.
Rear bag not in picture.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[357Mag]

Connor -

Howdy, again !

Pic of my CVA Hunter .35 Rem barrel-to-quad rail adapter.

I allowed myself generous clearances around the action & breech face areas. The barreled action is in essence “suspended” inside the adapter, via attachment using the original scope base mount holes atop the barrel.

Quad rail “exoskeleton” attaches to threaded holes in sides of the adapter.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[Pawnee Bill]

With regards to brass, I have seen several places that carry 45 Basic brass which should be long enough. I have a 50-110 in an '86 Win, it thumps you pretty good with a 400 gr bullet.

 

[ConnorExum]

Connor -

Howdy !

If you can bear with me, I’ll get around to my point !

IMHO-
Since the project is important enough to you, you’ll find the brass.

The big decision, is the action. I feel compelled to ask....are you sure it simply must be a bolt gun ? I certainly understand the thought behind using a bolt action as a key component of a “BR” rifle . At the same time.... you mention whether control round feed; or not. That seems to indicate some wiggle room on action choice, as......a no-kiddin short-range bench gun is classically a single shot. By extension then, a single shot capability does not itself require a particular action type.

To me, an additional factor is.... just how good a trigger can be had on the rifle ( action choice ) ?

I am doing a similar project, but based on the .35 Remington cartridge.
When Imstarted our, I used a new CT-made Marlin M-336 XLR that escaped the factory w/ a 1.5oz ( yes ounce ) trigger. All I wanted the rifle for was accuracy/target work, and not for field use; so the trigger was a blessing ! I have always shot a 2oz trigger on my bolt action varmint/target rifle’s, so I am quite accustomed to them. My initial goal was 5/8” 5-shot groups @ 100yd.

I ended up w/ a 5- shot best group 7/16”... which included a 3-shot subgroup of .250”.... 2 shots going wide because I misread the wind flag ! Aaaakkk ! But, I wanted to keep shooting my .35 Rem handloads using the single shot method, which is a bit unhandy when shooting a lever gun.

I am now migrating my .35 Remington “ benchrest” project over to a new CVA Hunter .35 Remington. The factory trigger pull is pretty decent, albeit I intend to try and reduce pull wt. I like the idea of having a readily-accessible breech/chamber.

With single shot break actions ( and some other single shot actions ), what needs to be addressed is the potential for vertical stringing.

What is did was make an adapter from an extruded aluminum tube, that mounts the barrel inside..... and fits into a quad rail on the outside. My idea is that the quad rail serves as an “ exoskeleton “.... accepting any verticals loads on it from the bi-pod; and also serving as a mount for the scope bases/rings/scope.

I have not yet been to the range w/ my new .35 Remington “BR” rifle, their having only recently re-opened. I do hope to do so, soon !

Anyways.... just wanted so give you some food for thought.

For a bolt action that can accept the rim diam you have in mind, perhaps a BRNO Mauser ? Not saying a M-700 would not be workable.


With regards,
357Mag

357Mag,

My goal is to create the most accurate BPCR rifle for shooting 1,000 to 1,500 yards. So, I feel the only way to get maximum accuracy potential is with some form of bolt action. I was originally thinking of using Montana Arms Winchester Pre- ‘64 M70 long action. But they recently went belly up it seems. So, now I am looking at the CZ 550 magnum action with a sleeve and match trigger.

I am not sure what brand right now but set at 1.5lbs. I am not a 2 oz guy. I know it will improve accuracy but I want shoot this less like benchrest rifle and more like a class f rifle.

My rest will be mechanical but more like a giant bipod with fine adjustments. So, I really want a stock with a chassis like system in it. I also prefer palm shelf type pistol grips. So this basically an old cartridge shoved into a new body.

all of your experiments look promising. I am surprised that you found a factory trigger set at 2 ozs that is a miracle. I thought they never installed anything under 2lbs in factory guns.

keep me posted on your progress.

 

[ebb]

Many 45-70 rifles were sold through CVA (I think) back years ago. They were made on a Siamese Mauser action that was a weird caliber and the bolt face was already the right size for the 45-70 rim. If you could find one of these it would only need the chamber lengthened. I see them occasionally on gun broker or other auction sites.

 

[357Mag]

Connor -
Howdy, again! Nice to hear from you!
I DK why my Marlin escaped the factory w/ a 1.5oz trigger ?! I also can’t tell you the exact cause, or rifle component that is responsible. Why ask why ?!
I certainly DO understand your
bolt rifle leanings. With an M-700 or one of the upscale clones... a 2lb trigger would be readily available.
For my first custom rifle, I was going to have Fred Sinclair put a Davidson sleeve on an XP-100 action. Rather than also having to pay for action truing anal the other accurizing tasks, Fred talked me into springing for a new Wichita WBR1375 benchrest action. I went w/ a straight bull barrel same 1.375” diam as the round Wichita action.
As Fred noted, use of a sleeved action would have driven me to certain stock choices. Yours sounds sorta like an “ unlimited “ type of rifle, certainly as regards weight ?
Am wondering whether your needs might be served by a Savage action? With a replaceable bolt head, you could install a modified bolt head ( if Savage doesn’t offer one for the rim diam you need ). This would allow you to set the action up for a different cartridge/rim diam later.... if need be.
Just thinkin....

With regards,
357Mag

 

[Adam in WI]

Just a thought, but my earlier suggestion of using the .458 Lott chamber might actually prove useful if you're committed to a bolt action. Case length is only .075” shorter so your capacity is similar, and having the standard belted magnum case can save you some gunsmithing while opening up your options for available platforms. Good luck on this project and keep this thread going! Sounds like a whole lot of fun!

 

[357Mag]

Connor -

Howdy, again !

I’m not sure whether you will be trying to make you rifle conform to a specific ( weight ) class ?

For a long range 1,000-1,500yd rifle, I am wondering about your intent to use a fluted barrel, that is fully floated ? A different approach would be to
use an unfluted barrel along w/ a “ barrel block “.... and float the action.
IF you are unconstrained by some finite weight limit, additional rifle wt could help mitigate recoil. Floating a sleeved action would perhaps drive
the stock to a wider width, but thoughtful stock design choices can help.

Again.... just thinkin.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[2506]

Before you take off on a wild goose chase and start spending a bunch of money I suggest that you do a whole bunch of research on long range shooting from the past. In the long range game with black powder cartridges one of the main things learned with 45 caliber is long heavy slugs going JUST UNDER the speed of sound were much more accurate than those that started out over the speed of sound. 500 to 550 gr running a little over 1100 fps was the norm. That is the reason that the 45-90 was about the largest case used. The 45-90 actually came along as a target round that would drive 550 gr paper patched bullets just under 1100 fps. The 45-110 was somewhat popular during the grate bison slaughter simply because it could drive a slug faster with less drop. Some of those slugs were lighter than 500 grs and called express loads. You also have to take into count that they were not shooting them at 1000 yards either. 300 to 400 yards was more like it and a buff is a BIG target.

 

[ConnorExum]

A little busy but I will reply to all.

 

[jonbearman]

I do it on a ruger number 1 if it were me and do stainless to help some with any possibility of corrosion .I am sure you wont have problems with it. You could also get a number 1 in 45-70 and have the chamber redone with the 45-110 reamer. I think that would be the safest way of experimenting with the cartridge.

 

[ConnorExum]

I do it on a ruger number 1 if it were me and do stainless to help some with any possibility of corrosion .I am sure you wont have problems with it. You could also get a number 1 in 45-70 and have the chamber redone with the 45-110 reamer. I think that would be the safest way of experimenting with the cartridge.

The only problem is you cannot free float the barrel on a falling block action as easily.

 

[dellet]

The only problem is you cannot free float the barrel on a falling block action as easily.

The forearm on a Winchester 1885 is freefloated and there are some others easily modified.

If you a just looking to work towards “most accurate” and want to try a bolt action, that’s one thing. If you are hoping to do any kind of competitions or recognized records you need to check the rules and see if you can even use a bolt action.

Your limitations will be the same as everyone else, powder and bullet quality. If you want to eliminate the hammer, there is always a Sharps Borchardt that is striker fired. Then again I think it’s still banned in the hard core traditional classes.

The flip side is to take a look at what the inline muzzle loaders have accomplished.

 

[ConnorExum]

My goal is pure accuracy...

 

[DirtySteve]

With regards to brass, I have seen several places that carry 45 Basic brass which should be long enough. I have a 50-110 in an '86 Win, it thumps you pretty good with a 400 gr bullet.

Who has any in stock? Dixie is out of it...!