4473 questions

[hoz53]

Hello everyone I know if a person attempts to purchase a firearm and fills out the 4473 and signs it but the address on 4473 and DL dont match its a no sale. I think the dealer could allow the person to correct 4473 but that is the dealers call? Anyway if the dealer doesnt allow this, my question is what happens next? Can the person go back another day, fill out the 4473 correctly and make the purchase? Doe ATF have rules on this? Or is this the dealers call? Thanks napsac

 

[jonbearman]

Why don't they match?

 

[hoz53]

They made a mistake filling out the form. Happens more often than one would think. Thanks for the reply jon

 

[shortgrass]

The person doesn't know their own address?

 

['Freak]

https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download
Form 4473, the whole mess of it, including the definitions/instructions what’ll answer your questions.

 

[LitLBoy]

The record at a gun shop near my home is 23 tries before the buyer got it right. They tell me 10-12 is kind of common. Slightest mistake you start all over.

 

[hogpatrol]

The record at a gun shop near my home is 23 tries before the buyer got it right. They tell me 10-12 is kind of common. Slightest mistake you start all over.

That is very disheartening. Unfortunately we have too many buyers graduating from video games to AR-15s.

 

[Cold Bore]

Why don't they match?

I did it once, shortly after moving.

After using the same address for 15 years, my mind just went auto-pilot, and put down my old one. (Actually, I used my new street address, combined with my old town name ).

The FFL noticed it, questioned me on it, and just tore up that 4473 while handing me a new one.

It happens.

 

[hoz53]

Thanks for the replys guys. What happened here was similar to coldbore. except in this case the dealer would not let him fix the mistake and wouldn't sell the gun to him.
I know the atf rule is no sale if the addresses don't match. But I think they allow corrections. Main thing I wonder about is what will happen if this guy goes back and tries to buy a firearm on a different day from the dealer that would not sell to him because of the address problem? I don't think there is an atf rule on this and it's the dealers call. But I'm not sure about this and would like to find out. I know the atf under Obama is getting very picky about 4473's

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If that dealer is that dumb id damn sure buy somewhere else. He needs to starve out. Unless the dude was acting crazy corrections can be made but you cant coach corrections like saying are you sure you dont want to check this box?

 

[SBS]

It's the dealer's call. The reason ATF requires that the address matches the Gov't issued ID is because that address has been verified and therefore proven (best as can be) that the person resided there at the time the ID was printed. If a person gives a different address than is on their ID, there is no way of knowing if it is bogus. Many people do not update their driver's lic. (most common form of ID) immediately when they move. Some States only require they do it online and a new ID is not issued unless the person requests it and goes to their local gov't office to redo it. Even though they have moved to a different address than is on the ID, they must put down the address on the ID. The ATF thinks it is easier to track them from their last known address than to risk having a bogus address, should they need to track them down later. Most of the big box stores do not understand the reasoning behind the requirement, and refuse to let the customer fill out another form, thinking they are upholding the rule. Have known of this happening at Gander Mtn., Walmart and others. The simplest cure is the seller notifying the buyer when handing him/her the form 4473 that the address must match their ID; and this does not violate any ATF rule -- it's not a secret.

 

[hoz53]

Thanks oleFreak for the 4473 link. I did read through it all but it didn't quite answer my questions. I learned a little though interesting

Thanks Dusty for confirming you can make corrections

Thanks SBS. I didn't know how atf handled the address match. That helps.

This did happen at walmart. I imagine their employees are more concerned about
Not losing their jobs than selling a firearm. I suppose walmart is under more scrutiny by atf than a typical small dealer. I know they have to keep records of the turndowns for 5 years so I wonder if they will turn the guy down if he goes back there at a later date and tries to make a purchase with matching addressees. At least I know if they
turn him down again it's their policy and not atf's

Thanks again all

 

[shortgrass]

Walmart!? Have you ever seen employees at any of the big box stores (in any department) who were properly trained?

 

[alinwa]

The record at a gun shop near my home is 23 tries before the buyer got it right. They tell me 10-12 is kind of common. Slightest mistake you start all over.

That is very disheartening. Unfortunately we have too many buyers graduating from video games to AR-15s.

How unfortunate indeed.....


So, in your perfect world, these silly little "video gamers" shouldn't be allowed to buy those AR-15's?

"city punks ennyways.... if'n they haven't mucked out the cowshed they shouldn't be buying an AR-15"....

???

"kids of today, puhhh"

 

[hogpatrol]

If the shoe fits......... 8)

 

[jghoghunter]

Sorry if it takes 10-12 times to fill out paperwork. You either can not read and need help to fill it out or you probably should not have that firearm anyway. Everyone makes mistakes but 10-12 times on a guess of 30 questions. Come on!

 

[hoz53]

Well to me the point of this thread has been to understand the atf rules and the store policys to make the buying experience as smooth as possible. I dont like walmart but I know if someone goes there to make a firearm purchase they better get the paperwork done right the first time or chances are they wont buy the gun.
I understand why it is that way as they are interested in CYA more than making the sale. Sounds like the same with other big boxes. I wonder what the policys at cabelas, sheels, bass pro ect are. I'm going to try and not find out and be careful never to make mistakes on any 4473s.

I would have never guessed somebody would make 10 to 20 mistakes on these. Hopefully some of the requirements to own a firearm wont soon be to be able to read, write and have a certain IQ

Thanks Everyone

and btw Didnt I hear Cabelas is going to buy basspro

 

[Banger357]

I went to the local ATF conference several times while I was managing a gun department of a large outdoor store. We were told that the proof of address (Driver license) HAD to reflect the current address, and the 4473 had to match. The only exception is if the customer told us they recently moved (within 30 days), they still have a valid driver license to establish residency however they could use a secondary proof of address to make the sale valid- it had to be a dated government document such as a car registration or a ground based utility bill (water bill okay, cable bill not).

If they told us they don’t currently reside at the address on the DL and they didn’t have one of the required documents showing the new address, we were required to stop the sale. We weren’t allowed to have them correct it or start over, because that would be knowingly having them lie on a 4473 (it says “current residence address in the address field, not “most recent listed address”).

If we legitimately believed the customer just made a mistake- like they accidentally put their work zip code in or their old city name or whatever, it would be okay to have them correct it or re-do the form. The seller’s perception is important- just like you’d be expected to shut down a sale if the purchaser said something that implied it was a straw purchase, you’d be expected to shut down the sale for knowing or strongly suspecting they were lying about their address. One of the ATF agents who spoke at my first conference kept emphasizing that you never need a reason to shut down a sale- if you get a bad feeling or suspect that the purchaser is hiding something, you can shut it down. Obviously that is from the government standpoint and not a sales standpoint so it isn’t so black and white for sellers, but that point was strongly emphasized several times.

I’m not saying I agree with it and many sellers probably wouldn’t do it that way. I just worked for a company that was VERY anal about doing the paperwork absolutely perfectly to minimize our chances of an audit ding and after 6 years, 2 audits, and several ATF conferences, I know that is how it is supposed to be done. An LGS typically is not going to be as strict about things that will be considered harmless fibs as a big company, and will be much more likely to make something like that go (depending on the shop, obviously).

 

[hoz53]

Thanks Banger --That's great info to know right from the horses mouth(atf). All firearm buyers would do well to read your post before purchasing. You are the guy I wanted to talk to about this subject. The only additional thing I wonder is If you stopped a sale because addresses didn't match, what happened if the person came back on a later day and filled out the paperwork with matching addresses
(Correctly to purchase). I know dealers keep records of turndowns. I wonder if they check those every sale to see if they have been turned down in the past and if they have then refuse the sale. I think this is the dealers call but don't know for sure. How did your store handle this? I wonder this because if a person is refused a sale at a certain store because they made a mistake on their address they might be banned from buying firearms at that store forever. Napsac

 

[Banger357]

No problem Napsac… it’s nice to be able to use/ share the info I had to cram into my head over the years

As the manager, shutting down sales was my sole responsibility. I had a kind of a don’t ask/ don’t tell policy. My issue with federal paperwork (and legal stuff in general) is that you have to enforce the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law. If someone told me outright that their address didn’t match (or whatever), I would shut the sale down. I didn’t always want to, but at the end of the day the company was paying me to enforce the ATF rules as well as our store policies. However, for something like that, I would file the voided 4473 as was required by law, but I wouldn’t put any kind of warning in our system for that customer, and there is no legal requirement to do so. If they came back the next day, filled out the paperwork correctly, and didn’t set off any red flags… well lets just say I have a terrible memory and wouldn’t remember them at all. I was particularly forgetful if they chose to include their SSN on the 4473… that to me said they weren’t trying to hide anything.

We had a way of flagging names as NFP (no future purchases) or RF (red flag- not necessarily banned but we were going to shut down any attempted sales for anything we could possibly find), but I only did that if we shut down a sale with evidence or suspicion of illegal intentions. For sketchy attempted sales, we would also mark the gun that they were trying to buy so that we could keep an eye out for the person sending a straw purchaser in in their place. We took that very seriously.

I personally believe in doing my part to keep guns out of the hands of “bad guys” but not punishing college kids who use their mom’s addresses or bad spellers who recently moved to a house on Caloosahatchee River rd. I think most sellers are the same way.

You can get around being banned at particularly strict stores by the way you handle it. If the seller is reviewing your paperwork and says your address doesn’t match your driver license and you respond with “Oh, I wasn’t aware it had to. I will go to the DMV and update this to my new address and come back when my license is corrected”, there is no reason to flag you. If you say “Oh, I’ll change the paperwork to match what my license says”, that will be seen as you admitting that you are going to lie on the paperwork, which can’t be overlooked.

I hope that helps! Obviously this is just my personal experiences, but maybe it will shed some light on what sellers generally do and don’t see as serious issues on 4473s.