44/40 problems
- Thread starter Hino895
- Start date
Handloading The .44-40 Win.
by Layne Simpson - Friday, March 23, 2018
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/3/23/handloading-the-44-40-win/
RELOADING THE .44 WCF (.44-40)
https://gunsmagazine.com/handloading-2/reloading-the-44-wcf-44-40/
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/GUNS/GUNS1215/?page=28
by Layne Simpson - Friday, March 23, 2018
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/3/23/handloading-the-44-40-win/
RELOADING THE .44 WCF (.44-40)
https://gunsmagazine.com/handloading-2/reloading-the-44-wcf-44-40/
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/GUNS/GUNS1215/?page=28
I never saw or missed one salient point..... are you trying for economy of powder by using a fast "pistol" powder?
Is this a "dual purpose" load(rifle AND pistol)?
Or,are you looking for X ring rifle accuracy,$$ be danged? If this is the notion,I'd find the slowest rifle powder that fills the case at a moderate,for the chambering,velocity. Then run a few tests. Need a touch more velocity,go to a slightly faster,less fill powder. Paying very close attention to powder buggers along the way meaning,you have to closely monitor these slow powders efficiency within the overall picture. I'll take some fouling when using cast and certain powders if the X ring goes missing on a regular basis. The fouling aids in certain rigs as a lubricant,of sorts with cast. But velocity is important too,it's a balance that the rig/target is trying to tell us,if we'll just listen. Good luck with your project.
Is this a "dual purpose" load(rifle AND pistol)?
Or,are you looking for X ring rifle accuracy,$$ be danged? If this is the notion,I'd find the slowest rifle powder that fills the case at a moderate,for the chambering,velocity. Then run a few tests. Need a touch more velocity,go to a slightly faster,less fill powder. Paying very close attention to powder buggers along the way meaning,you have to closely monitor these slow powders efficiency within the overall picture. I'll take some fouling when using cast and certain powders if the X ring goes missing on a regular basis. The fouling aids in certain rigs as a lubricant,of sorts with cast. But velocity is important too,it's a balance that the rig/target is trying to tell us,if we'll just listen. Good luck with your project.
Hina895
Interesting splits ya got there.
Bullseye was one of the first powders used for revolvers back in the day. Been around since 1897. It was used by handloaders since at least 1909 and was popular, along with Unique (1900) by the 1920's and 1930's for use in the 44-40 revolvers. Bullseye is one of the fastest burning powders available. 6gr is fine in any firearm chambered for the 44-40. Ed Harris, aka Outpost75 on several forums loves Bullseye.
To try and answer your problem, I think you have over sized chambers. Go the SAAMI's website, page 144 (https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...99.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf) and check out the chamber measurements and compare them to the expanded size where your cases split. This should shed some light on the matter.
Current SAAMI max pressures for the 44-40 is 11,000 psi (13,000cup) but that in no way is the limit for some strong action rifles like the Winchester 92' and Marlin 88' and 94' designs. Those rifles used Winchester's factory HIgh Velocity loads that accepted pressures to 22,000 cup which is close to 18,000 psi. 6gr of Bullseye should produce only 12,000psi which is fine for the weaker Winchester 73' types and revolvers. I urge you and others to read Larry Gibson's tests results here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/larry-gibson Ed Harris has much information here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/ed-harris
I am a firm believer that 44-40 rifle cartridges used in rifles should use slower burning rifle powders like Reloder 7, IMR-4227, H4198 etc. Pistol powders are fine but accuracy is hindered beyond 100 to 150 yards with those faster burning powders. For the Winchester 73' Reloder 7 has given me the best results at 100 yards and further. IMR-4227 gives me those high velocity performances out to 300 yards in the Marlin 1894CB.
Sharp once wrote in his 1937 hand-loading manual...
" The 44-40 is capable of excellent performance when loaded properly for handgun use. If, however, one endeavors to combine loading for both handgun and rifle in this caliber, he is destined to meet with only mediocre success. As in all other dual-purpose cartridges, the factory loads are only a compromise at best. Smokeless-powder loading for handguns requires a much more rapid-burning type than loading for rifle use, as the short barrel must burn all the powder if satisfactory results are to be achieved. In addition, rifle cartridges [NOT FOR THE WINCHESTER 73'] can be loaded to a pressure of about 30,000 pounds in this caliber, whereas the same load in a revolver would be more or less disastrous."
Thus, reversing said logic today, the reason for modern mediocre factory loads using pistol powders in RIFLES. Back then rifles were loaded properly with slower burning rifle powders that are not available today. IMR-4227 best replicates Hercules "Sharpshooter" powder that was once used before WWII. Reloder 7 best replicates earlier "case load" or "bulk" smokeless powder used in 1895.
You can certainly used a lighter load to prevent splits but you are robbing yourself of the true performance of even the 73''s capability to achieve 1,300fps velocities at 12,000 psi! I'd get the chambers checked for being oversized and get it fixed or replaced.
I just finished a test last night that helps prove the cartridge case does not touch the bolt when fired with low pressures. I am working up loads to see at what pressures the case actually thrusts back and contacts the bolt, thus proving that the 73' bolt/toggles is not under the stress that many think with low pressures loads. At higher pressures, the case expands into the chamber wall and is held in place momentarily by friction before the pressure reduces, the case returns to a small diameter and releases from the wall of which then if there is still enough pressures, thrusts back into the bolt. (see links below).
If someone is hurting Winchester 73' toggles, it is because they are shooting heavy loads and lying about it.
44-40 Cartridge History - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester
44-40 Handloading - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading
44-40 Pressure Testing - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/pressure-testing
My current project,
44-40 Bolt Thrust Pressure Tests - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/john-kort/bolt-thrust-pressure
John Kort - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/john-kort
Ed Harris - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/ed-harris
Larry Gibson - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/larry-gibson
Interesting splits ya got there.
Bullseye was one of the first powders used for revolvers back in the day. Been around since 1897. It was used by handloaders since at least 1909 and was popular, along with Unique (1900) by the 1920's and 1930's for use in the 44-40 revolvers. Bullseye is one of the fastest burning powders available. 6gr is fine in any firearm chambered for the 44-40. Ed Harris, aka Outpost75 on several forums loves Bullseye.
To try and answer your problem, I think you have over sized chambers. Go the SAAMI's website, page 144 (https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...99.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf) and check out the chamber measurements and compare them to the expanded size where your cases split. This should shed some light on the matter.
Current SAAMI max pressures for the 44-40 is 11,000 psi (13,000cup) but that in no way is the limit for some strong action rifles like the Winchester 92' and Marlin 88' and 94' designs. Those rifles used Winchester's factory HIgh Velocity loads that accepted pressures to 22,000 cup which is close to 18,000 psi. 6gr of Bullseye should produce only 12,000psi which is fine for the weaker Winchester 73' types and revolvers. I urge you and others to read Larry Gibson's tests results here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/larry-gibson Ed Harris has much information here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/ed-harris
I am a firm believer that 44-40 rifle cartridges used in rifles should use slower burning rifle powders like Reloder 7, IMR-4227, H4198 etc. Pistol powders are fine but accuracy is hindered beyond 100 to 150 yards with those faster burning powders. For the Winchester 73' Reloder 7 has given me the best results at 100 yards and further. IMR-4227 gives me those high velocity performances out to 300 yards in the Marlin 1894CB.
Sharp once wrote in his 1937 hand-loading manual...
" The 44-40 is capable of excellent performance when loaded properly for handgun use. If, however, one endeavors to combine loading for both handgun and rifle in this caliber, he is destined to meet with only mediocre success. As in all other dual-purpose cartridges, the factory loads are only a compromise at best. Smokeless-powder loading for handguns requires a much more rapid-burning type than loading for rifle use, as the short barrel must burn all the powder if satisfactory results are to be achieved. In addition, rifle cartridges [NOT FOR THE WINCHESTER 73'] can be loaded to a pressure of about 30,000 pounds in this caliber, whereas the same load in a revolver would be more or less disastrous."
Thus, reversing said logic today, the reason for modern mediocre factory loads using pistol powders in RIFLES. Back then rifles were loaded properly with slower burning rifle powders that are not available today. IMR-4227 best replicates Hercules "Sharpshooter" powder that was once used before WWII. Reloder 7 best replicates earlier "case load" or "bulk" smokeless powder used in 1895.
You can certainly used a lighter load to prevent splits but you are robbing yourself of the true performance of even the 73''s capability to achieve 1,300fps velocities at 12,000 psi! I'd get the chambers checked for being oversized and get it fixed or replaced.
I just finished a test last night that helps prove the cartridge case does not touch the bolt when fired with low pressures. I am working up loads to see at what pressures the case actually thrusts back and contacts the bolt, thus proving that the 73' bolt/toggles is not under the stress that many think with low pressures loads. At higher pressures, the case expands into the chamber wall and is held in place momentarily by friction before the pressure reduces, the case returns to a small diameter and releases from the wall of which then if there is still enough pressures, thrusts back into the bolt. (see links below).
If someone is hurting Winchester 73' toggles, it is because they are shooting heavy loads and lying about it.
44-40 Cartridge History - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester
44-40 Handloading - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading
44-40 Pressure Testing - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/pressure-testing
My current project,
44-40 Bolt Thrust Pressure Tests - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/john-kort/bolt-thrust-pressure
John Kort - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/john-kort
Ed Harris - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/ed-harris
Larry Gibson - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/larry-gibson
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