416 Barrett-Loads-400gr

[davidjoe]

The Barnard’s action family resemblance is clear. I see from the picture earlier and today that the black stock gun shoots with and without brakes on barrels. It was a great idea to build one without a brake. Only 50 I’ve seen without one. The brake’s muzzle blast on 50’s becomes fatiguing but obviously if you give up the brake there has to be a lot of compensating weight in the gun. I figure a 50 round as about 5 .308’s. Your loads might be more like 6 .308’s going off. 68/5 isn’t an awful weight ratio.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

The Barnard’s action family resemblance is clear. I see from the picture earlier and today that the black stock gun shoots with and without brakes on barrels. It was a great idea to build one without a brake. Only 50 I’ve seen without one. The brake’s muzzle blast on 50’s becomes fatiguing but obviously if you give up the brake there has to be a lot of compensating weight in the gun. I figure a 50 round as about 5 .308’s. Your loads might be more like 6 .308’s going off. 68/5 isn’t an awful weight ratio.

The 50's DO have brakes, - I've not fired one yet without - The 416 Barrett, I ran some recoil impulse calculations with weight factored in & figured I'd be ok to run without, and I am - Now an 820 gr. bullet at 3000 fps with No brake, Not for me (LOL)

 

[davidjoe]

The 50's DO have brakes, - I've not fired one yet without - The 416 Barrett, I ran some recoil impulse calculations with weight factored in & figured I'd be ok to run without, and I am - Now an 820 gr. bullet at 3000 fps with No brake, Not for me (LOL)

Oh yes, of course, that one is a switch barrel, I remember now. Looking at that heaviest gun, it does make me wonder if say a 100-110 pound class gun could get by without one, though. Fclass doesn’t allow brakes. When I experimented with .338 LM, the 22 pound limit did tame the 300 grain bullets’ recoil at ~97.0 grains of RE 33. I found that barrel heat, not sound or recoil was the limiting factor. At 12 rounds or so I’d run an alcohol soaked rag down the barrel and it would steam and sizzle.

 

[rogn]

- That's a very good question davidjoe, - And I realize that a lot of folks are of the mindset that the bigger the cartridge is, then the potential for accuracy is diminished to some degree. - I've just recently started working with the 416 Barrett and am impressed and I still have a lot of testing that I want to do with different projectiles.
- Lee Rasmussen (FCSA world record holder who shot a 1.9557" five shot group at 1000 yards) told me, accuracy is just that "accuracy" and what goes into creating the ammunition and the rifle are all every bit as important in the 50 caliber world as it is in the smaller BR caliber world. - Reloading components for all calibers have come a long ways over the last 5-10 years IMO for not just "regular" BR type calibers but the larger calibers as well. - In the earlier days G.I. brass was shot in the 50's and IMI or TMZ was the preferred brass to get ahold of. - Well, along comes RUAG/RWS and Lapua and produces brass for the 50 cal. - There's a big step up in quality & consistency in brass that is available.
- Another "improvement" that I feel that could help the larger calibers is some honest to goodness true match-grade copper jacketed lead core bullets made to the exacting tolerances that the smaller Bench rest projectiles are made to. - How many 6BRA or Dasher shooters do we hear of shooting monolithic solids & winning anything ??? - None, last time I checked. - I believe there are a whole set of "inherent" issues with shooting lathe turned monolithic solids and it has to do with the barrels & chambers we shoot them in. - The bullets are turned to quite precise dimensions but some barrels and throat / lead configurations seem to not tolerate these bullets well sometimes from an accuracy standpoint, regardless if the bullets are bore-riders, seal-tight band, bronze, copper, full-bore diameter or what-have we.
- I believe that greater accuracy could be achieved if "true" BR quality & tolerance bullets of lead core & precision copper jackets could be brought to the table for the big calibers. - One or two smaller companies have tried to mfgr bullets that are lead core & copper jacketed and their tolerances IMO were not as good as the 750 gr. Hornady A-Max. - Their bullets were purchased, tried & didn't cut the mustard from a "BR Accuracy" stand point or everyone who shoots FCSA competition would be using them, plain & simple.
- I started shooting the 50 in 2009 and do not claim to be "the 50 guru" as there are some guys who've been at it since the 80's when Skip Talbot & the founding members started the FCSA & shooting the 50 for accuracy at paper targets. - Another reality is demand & supply, No one builds components if they can't make money doing it, hence there needs to be demand & enough of it to support the front-end product development & testing to get it to the market place and have a product that is successful & still enough demand to where it can survive. - Who's going to turn out bullets at 10 dollars a piece and hope that it
will survive a limited market ? - J4 jacket company isn't just going to produce a few hundred very precise jackets so an experimenter who spent a big pile of cash already on a custom set of precision bullet making dies can "tinker" & test the water in 50 cal. - Jackets would need to be drawn to be very concentric & have 0.0003 or less wall thickness variation without fail, as is standard for custom jacketed bullets for the project to even have a chance at being the tolerances that are met in todays custom bullet making process by the men who do it today. (Bart's, BIB's, Berger, JLK, Vapor-Trail, etc., and several others)

- The right barrel chambered & throated correctly for monolithic solid bullets can produce some very good accuracy, I saw it in Raton, NM in 2011 and in matches afterwards. 2-3 inch groups even though only 5 shots at 1000 yards by a big 50 is obtainable, the records show this, consistency is where things have room for improvement. And I don't care how big folks think that bullet is, the wind still has an impact on it.
- Also, there's not as many shooters who pursue large caliber accuracy for obvious reasons, costs being a big one so progress hasn't abounded to the degree that it has in the regular SR & LR BR communities. - I enjoy trying to get what I can out of a big caliber rifle, that's why I do it. - Also, I've learned along the way & most of it has been thanks to the "regular" Bench-rest community and also why I've opted to jo
in their ranks.

- Ron -

I seem to recall a conversation with an expartners son who was associated with an artillery group. They would compete with various and sundry military units. They were using a selfpropelled "cannon or "rifle". The competitions involved lobbing shells at about 20 miles. The target was typically a 4X8" sheet of plywood. The premise here is that hitting your target counts, then accuracy is not diminished by the size of the "bullet". They did have some advantage over the average long range hunter in that the coordinates were given them and relayed to control computer who inturn "pulled" the trigger. I understand the target was frequently struck. Im too lazy to calculate MOA on that one.

 

[jbhotrod]

Which has better potential ballistics between the .50 Improved vs .416? I'd guess the .50 Imp?

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

Which has better potential ballistics between the .50 Improved vs .416? I'd guess the .50 Imp?

I haven't run charts (yet) for comparison. A lot will depend on "real world BC" versus published BC (of any projectiles). - Also there are a good number of projectiles to consider for chart entry comparisons. - In the End accuracy trumps everything for ELR type shooting and there is still a lot of testing that needs to be carried out. (Testing = 5 shot groups at 2000 yards or greater - i.e. E2K competition type match conditions on a target).
- My guess (and it's only that) is a 416 Barrett Improved using 525 gr. bullets out of a rifle with a 40" barrel would probably have the best "potential ballistics" (but that doesn't mean the best accuracy).
- One thing that other long range E2K shooters have expressed & I fully agree with is that actual real-world testing has to take place in order to have definitive results.

- Ron -

 

[jbhotrod]

Few q's:

1) You mentioned the need for lead core bullets to get true accuracy out of these ELR platforms... has it ever been tried to produce an all copper bullet in the same way a conventional bullet is made? Ie instead of a lathe turning a solid bronze/copper/etc projo; make some copper/bronze(or even potentially mild steel, iron or some such) cores and have copper jackets drawn around them? If it worked out accuracy wise, could potentially provide close to same accuracy as conventional HPBT's while still giving the BC of the solids..

2) Have you tried any of the cutting edge bullets? How about the Warner Flatlines?

3) Has anyone managed to get fairly close to the accuracy of conventional bullets using solids?

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

Few q's:

1) You mentioned the need for lead core bullets to get true accuracy out of these ELR platforms... has it ever been tried to produce an all copper bullet in the same way a conventional bullet is made? Ie instead of a lathe turning a solid bronze/copper/etc projo; make some copper/bronze(or even potentially mild steel, iron or some such) cores and have copper jackets drawn around them? If it worked out accuracy wise, could potentially provide close to same accuracy as conventional HPBT's while still giving the BC of the solids..

2) Have you tried any of the cutting edge bullets? How about the Warner Flatlines?

3) Has anyone managed to get fairly close to the accuracy of conventional bullets using solids?

1). That is “my opinion” tho at true match grade lead core copper jacketed bullets would help. - I’m not saying .that it’s the only solution. Again, what I’ve found is that monolithic solids are picky and some barrels shoot them better than others and they seem to have a somewhat narrow velocity window where they produce their best accuracy.

2). I have 3 different Cutting Edge bullets in hand, the 420 gr., 444 gr., and the 472 gr. I haven’t yet run tests but will be in the near future using Reloder 50.

I have the old and discontinued Hornady 450 gr. Match to compare the Cutting Edge bullets and some 416 gr. Lehigh bullets to.
The Hornady 450 gr. Managed under 2 inches (5 shot groups) at 500 yards.