416 Barrett-Loads-400gr
- Thread starter ernierod
- Start date
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
ernierod, - The Barrett forum is a place you may want to have a look at. - another comment / suggestion that I'd like to put on the table, - Try Alliant Reloder 50. Hodgdon US-869 is not only temperature sensitive but like most very slow ball powders it needs to be run at near the top end to get consistent results that lead to potential accuracy. - loading at 62-66Kpsi coupled with temperature changes & pressure spikes to me isn't the way to approach an "accurate reloading" process. - Just recently I ran some 450 gr. bullets in my 416 Barrett, I started out at 178.0 gr. of RL-50 and toped out at 192.0 gr. - I run them up in 2.0 gr. increments & chronographed using a LabRadar while measuring head expansion & noting bolt lift as well as what the groups on the targets told me at 500 yds. - With a 400 gr. bullet in a "standard" throated 416 Barrett, I can't see why you couldn't start at 180.0 gr. of RL-50 and work up doing the same type regime as I've described. - I'm running a custom rifle with a 40" barrel and the 178.0 gr. clocked at 3003 fps and the 192.0 gr load (All using 450 gr bullets) clocked at 3324 fps where I just started getting "feel" on the bolt lift.
US-869, WC-870, WC-872 powders are military powders designed around aircraft mounted versions of 20mm & 50 BMG cal. anti-aircraft guns. On ammo that is only going to be fired 1 time & cutting edge accuracy is not a key factor.
RL-50 is a very good choice to use in the 416 Barrett.
Good Luck, Good Shooting - Ron -
R.Morehouse
Gold $$ Contributor
That just sounds like a HOOT to play with..........
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
That just sounds like a HOOT to play with..........
Yes it is. - The gun weighs 68 Lbs. and I built it Without a muzzle brake. She is not at all unmanageable on the rest. - I fired 47 rounds the day I did the break-in on the barrel & wished that I had more ammo that day, but I didn't want to get to far along in the loading process until I knew what was going on.
These big guns can be made shoot accurately if the right steps are taken. - This ones going to E2K in Montana and I plan to test & tune it at 2K prior to the match. - It shot pretty well at 500 yds & I'm hoping it holds at 2K.
Is that a two by forty inch barrel? Like 38 pounds? Free floated on the EX 2-1/2 action? I ordered a shorter one the other day for that red stocked 50. Glad to see a brake is optimal. Making it a switch barrel. Those 22-250 velocities you get shame the 50.
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
Yes - 2.00 for 10" then straight taper to 1.75" on a BAT EX25. - This is a switch-barrel gun. - Has 4 barrels in 50 BMG Imp. - The 50 barrels have a Big brake. - The 50 BMG does alright as well. I pushed the 820 gr. Lehigh heavy bore riders to 3060 fps without problems running V/V 20N29 (271 gr.) rounds warmed in a warmer for about 36 hours at 130 F.
- When I did the 416 I scaled the dimensions of the reamer print down to fit the RUAG/RWS brass & its a neck-turn chamber. (Same on the 50's they're neck turn as well) - The 416 barrels are 1-13 tw., enough to stabilize up to the 450's & maybe even the 472 gr.
- Ron -
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
It DOES look like fun...but I'm still trying to wrap my head around the notion of only getting about 5 loaded rounds per pound of powder.
35 per pound which is better than 26 in a 50 BMG Imp. - If one hand loads it's not really all that bad. Can load a "match grade" round for about $3.00 in 50 cal. Less in 416 depending on the bullets being loaded.
- The out lay cost is what is expensive, when I had the chambering done I had a straight-line bullet seater (custom) made by Gordy Gritters and that was $450.00 because of the machine-work time (for 50 BMG Imp.). - Hornady custom die dept. built the dies for the 416 Barrett part of it.
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
Another item that I would do. - Check your brass for "Water Over-flow" case capacity, especially if your using Quick-Load as part of your regime in creating your loads as there is some differences in the brass that has been produced over the years. - Currently Barrett is the only source that I'm aware of that is providing brass for the 416 Barrett. - A gentleman that I know in Oklahoma was producing all the brass for Barrett. He has a 4 die forming set that includes a neck reaming die to remove some material from the neck. - I'm not sure if he's still the one forming it up. - I was going to form my own brass but the $1600.00 for the forming set put a stop to that. - Q/L case capacity default value needs to be checked and adjusted accordingly in the program values if your going to use it with any confidence otherwise you could end up making some over-pressure ammo and not realizing it. - An older Hornady reloading manual also lists 416 barrett loading data but I'm 100 miles offshore at work or I'd share that with you. - The loads are pretty conservative in the Hornady loading manual & I don't know if the present day Hornady manual even lists the 416 Barrett as they no longer make the 450 gr. match bullet. (which was made for primarily the 416 Barrett). - The Brass I'm running has a water to over-flow case capacity of 219 to 220 grains. - Q/L updates sometimes modify parameters of some cartridges and unless one is paying close attention plus verifying it then the data outputted can be off & even be dangerous. - I realize that for a well experienced hand-loader what I'm saying is common place action but for others it may not be recognized so I want to mention it.
- Ron -
Which would say has the absolute long range accuracy advantage, heavy BMG Imp going over 3k, or 416 heavies? The proportions remind of two cases relative to each other - Rsaum and .338 LM, that actually perform pretty similarly at 1,000 even though the bigger one seems to have to try much harder.
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
- That's a very good question davidjoe, - And I realize that a lot of folks are of the mindset that the bigger the cartridge is, then the potential for accuracy is diminished to some degree. - I've just recently started working with the 416 Barrett and am impressed and I still have a lot of testing that I want to do with different projectiles.
- Lee Rasmussen (FCSA world record holder who shot a 1.9557" five shot group at 1000 yards) told me, accuracy is just that "accuracy" and what goes into creating the ammunition and the rifle are all every bit as important in the 50 caliber world as it is in the smaller BR caliber world. - Reloading components for all calibers have come a long ways over the last 5-10 years IMO for not just "regular" BR type calibers but the larger calibers as well. - In the earlier days G.I. brass was shot in the 50's and IMI or TMZ was the preferred brass to get ahold of. - Well, along comes RUAG/RWS and Lapua and produces brass for the 50 cal. - There's a big step up in quality & consistency in brass that is available.
- Another "improvement" that I feel that could help the larger calibers is some honest to goodness true match-grade copper jacketed lead core bullets made to the exacting tolerances that the smaller Bench rest projectiles are made to. - How many 6BRA or Dasher shooters do we hear of shooting monolithic solids & winning anything ??? - None, last time I checked. - I believe there are a whole set of "inherent" issues with shooting lathe turned monolithic solids and it has to do with the barrels & chambers we shoot them in. - The bullets are turned to quite precise dimensions but some barrels and throat / lead configurations seem to not tolerate these bullets well sometimes from an accuracy standpoint, regardless if the bullets are bore-riders, seal-tight band, bronze, copper, full-bore diameter or what-have we.
- I believe that greater accuracy could be achieved if "true" BR quality & tolerance bullets of lead core & precision copper jackets could be brought to the table for the big calibers. - One or two smaller companies have tried to mfgr bullets that are lead core & copper jacketed and their tolerances IMO were not as good as the 750 gr. Hornady A-Max. - Their bullets were purchased, tried & didn't cut the mustard from a "BR Accuracy" stand point or everyone who shoots FCSA competition would be using them, plain & simple.
- I started shooting the 50 in 2009 and do not claim to be "the 50 guru" as there are some guys who've been at it since the 80's when Skip Talbot & the founding members started the FCSA & shooting the 50 for accuracy at paper targets. - Another reality is demand & supply, No one builds components if they can't make money doing it, hence there needs to be demand & enough of it to support the front-end product development & testing to get it to the market place and have a product that is successful & still enough demand to where it can survive. - Who's going to turn out bullets at 10 dollars a piece and hope that it will survive a limited market ? - J4 jacket company isn't just going to produce a few hundred very precise jackets so an experimenter who spent a big pile of cash already on a custom set of precision bullet making dies can "tinker" & test the water in 50 cal. - Jackets would need to be drawn to be very concentric & have 0.0003 or less wall thickness variation without fail, as is standard for custom jacketed bullets for the project to even have a chance at being the tolerances that are met in todays custom bullet making process by the men who do it today. (Bart's, BIB's, Berger, JLK, Vapor-Trail, etc., and several others)
- The right barrel chambered & throated correctly for monolithic solid bullets can produce some very good accuracy, I saw it in Raton, NM in 2011 and in matches afterwards. 2-3 inch groups even though only 5 shots at 1000 yards by a big 50 is obtainable, the records show this, consistency is where things have room for improvement. And I don't care how big folks think that bullet is, the wind still has an impact on it.
- Also, there's not as many shooters who pursue large caliber accuracy for obvious reasons, costs being a big one so progress hasn't abounded to the degree that it has in the regular SR & LR BR communities. - I enjoy trying to get what I can out of a big caliber rifle, that's why I do it. - Also, I've learned along the way & most of it has been thanks to the "regular" Bench-rest community and also why I've opted to join their ranks.
- Ron -
Certainly, to the extent that disturbing the platform hurts accuracy, the larger blasts, vibrations, torquing, etc. suffer more. Huge cartridges probably have some inherent offsetting advantages though.
a) somehow BC calculations seem to overstate small bullet equivalency to heavy bullets eg. on paper, the .223 warrants far more long range usage and credibility than it actually earns in F/TR;
b) small variances round to round may not matter as much as it does for small bullets, - charge weight, neck tension, small bullet imperfections, etc. (hard to imagine .1 grain variance affecting 250 grain load).
c) I’ve always surmised that rifling deformations create drag and are nearly as equally deep no matter how heavy or light the bullet is, (see a);
d) as far as user hold goes, it’s harder to jerk a 45 pounder that uses the same 1 pound trigger pull.
e) length, like weight, that extra wheelbase has got to help keep the rifle on target in the process of firing.
I was always perplexed when Barrett introduced the claim that the new .416 is ballistically superior to the .50.
As a necked down and more overbore cartridge, they are right, in the same sense that a .243 can outshoot a .308 in wind drift, but at the cost of barrel life.
Ultimately though, there is no getting around the physics that as caliber increases, the same given velocity will carry a larger and larger caliber projectile further and further. Eventually air would mean nothing and only gravity would matter. If I’m not mistaken a large naval cannon’s velocity is nothing extraordinary to achieve 25 miles range. Yes, a 50 BMG is closer to a .22 LR than to a sixteen inch gun, but the point remains.
I agree with you the 50’s potential is under leveraged. I have long thought that 1,000 yard matches ought to be won by .338 Lapua, but there again any advantage it would have to faster 7’s isn’t evident so close. At least with existing bullets. 1,500 plus might show an advantage. Likewise these big boomers need vast room to outscore or outgroup the smalls. Probably 2,000 yards would flip flop all the top F/Open guns’ groups with an average AR 50 off the shelf, but that never happens. The only comparisons that do happen are 1,000 groups because everyone uses those ranges.
I’ce got .375 barrels ordered to use with a 2 inch Bat L I have, for ELR. Just need a new bolt. On order. I’m thinking that, along these lines, it ought to be fast and high BC enough to play.
But of course the evolving weight limit is my real rationale. I can’t see any gun based on the 2.5 EX weighing 40 pounds with Bipod, without wearing a barrel that looks absurd on the big Bat. Any barrel that would make weight can be handled equally well by their 2 inch actions.
a) somehow BC calculations seem to overstate small bullet equivalency to heavy bullets eg. on paper, the .223 warrants far more long range usage and credibility than it actually earns in F/TR;
b) small variances round to round may not matter as much as it does for small bullets, - charge weight, neck tension, small bullet imperfections, etc. (hard to imagine .1 grain variance affecting 250 grain load).
c) I’ve always surmised that rifling deformations create drag and are nearly as equally deep no matter how heavy or light the bullet is, (see a);
d) as far as user hold goes, it’s harder to jerk a 45 pounder that uses the same 1 pound trigger pull.
e) length, like weight, that extra wheelbase has got to help keep the rifle on target in the process of firing.
I was always perplexed when Barrett introduced the claim that the new .416 is ballistically superior to the .50.
As a necked down and more overbore cartridge, they are right, in the same sense that a .243 can outshoot a .308 in wind drift, but at the cost of barrel life.
Ultimately though, there is no getting around the physics that as caliber increases, the same given velocity will carry a larger and larger caliber projectile further and further. Eventually air would mean nothing and only gravity would matter. If I’m not mistaken a large naval cannon’s velocity is nothing extraordinary to achieve 25 miles range. Yes, a 50 BMG is closer to a .22 LR than to a sixteen inch gun, but the point remains.
I agree with you the 50’s potential is under leveraged. I have long thought that 1,000 yard matches ought to be won by .338 Lapua, but there again any advantage it would have to faster 7’s isn’t evident so close. At least with existing bullets. 1,500 plus might show an advantage. Likewise these big boomers need vast room to outscore or outgroup the smalls. Probably 2,000 yards would flip flop all the top F/Open guns’ groups with an average AR 50 off the shelf, but that never happens. The only comparisons that do happen are 1,000 groups because everyone uses those ranges.
I’ce got .375 barrels ordered to use with a 2 inch Bat L I have, for ELR. Just need a new bolt. On order. I’m thinking that, along these lines, it ought to be fast and high BC enough to play.
But of course the evolving weight limit is my real rationale. I can’t see any gun based on the 2.5 EX weighing 40 pounds with Bipod, without wearing a barrel that looks absurd on the big Bat. Any barrel that would make weight can be handled equally well by their 2 inch actions.
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
The 2.00 dia. model "L" action is an excellent choice or the 1.75 octagon model "L" for an ELR rig up to including the Cheytac case. - Another avenue is to use the EX20 (2.00 diameter) and have the bolt done in CheyTac case head size. - BAT will do this at no extra cost. OR if you wanted they can do 2 bolts, one in CheyTac & another in 50 cal case head size. - The Model "L" requires a minimum of a 1.450 dia. barrel & the EX requires a 1.75" min. barrel.
Until the "dust" settles regarding weight, I won't even pursue building an ELR Bi-Pod gun. - I'll run with the 338 Lapua Imp. that I have and will pursue E2K which I'm hoping is a success as at least the rules are laid out and not in a state of continual change.
The EX25 is too big for ELR type competition, back when I purchased these actions the intent was & still is Unlimited class 50 BLG rifles. The one I added the 416 Barrett to as it was most cost effective to do the 416 Barrett addition. - The second one has 2.00 dia. barrels in some big blocks on a really big stock.
- Ron -
Until the "dust" settles regarding weight, I won't even pursue building an ELR Bi-Pod gun. - I'll run with the 338 Lapua Imp. that I have and will pursue E2K which I'm hoping is a success as at least the rules are laid out and not in a state of continual change.
The EX25 is too big for ELR type competition, back when I purchased these actions the intent was & still is Unlimited class 50 BLG rifles. The one I added the 416 Barrett to as it was most cost effective to do the 416 Barrett addition. - The second one has 2.00 dia. barrels in some big blocks on a really big stock.
- Ron -
I really need to look into the E2K program you mention. My Bat 50 needs a venue.
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
The Green Stocked gun Above the Maxi-Tracker is a Barnard GP action - This is a Heavy-Class Rifle.
The two with the Laminated stocks on the bottom are EastRidge State Arms (Shell Holder bolt) actions. - The Bi-Pod gun is a Hunter-Class gun and the Brown stocked (laminated wood) is a Light-Class gun - Both of these are in "standard" 50 BMG with neck-turn chambers. - They were the first two 50's that I started with.
The muzzle brakes are all built by EastRidge State Arms. - What I like about them is they do not reduce the muzzle diameter very much and they are a very efficient brake.
The Maxi-Tracker is a "One of" done by Bill Shehane at D & B Supply, Stretched, Widened & on steroids to accommodate the big action & block.
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