41 Mag lead bullet lube question

[ssv1761982]

Hi, I found a box of 500 old lead bullets that are marked as swaged but have no lube grooves at a yard sale. Will these lead up the barrel without lube grooves? Could they be coated with something else that doesn't need grooves? We are wanting to load some plinking loads for a 41 mag.

 

[jepp2]

Will these lead up the barrel without lube grooves?

A lot of the Speer swaged ones didn't have lube grooves. They had a waxy substance (maybe like Lee Alox) on the outside. Some had a pattern kind of like the old Rem impressed checkering on the sides.

Will they lead? It all depends. What are your throat diameters, what is your bore diameter? What velocity are you going to shoot them? Etc. etc. One way to find out, shoot them. I try to run swaged around 750 fps.

 

[DirtySteve]

I concur with Jepp2, Keep the velocity at or below 800 fps and you should be fine. If you have any liquid a lox you could give the a shake in a bowl to coat them. But is you can feel any type of film on them they probably have a lube applied to them. They would be great for shooting steel or bowling pins.

 

[sw282]

Speer loading manuel says to limit their swaged lead bullets to 900fps.. Most likely they are 210gr swc... Remington used to make them too... Sadly 41 magnum has fallen out of favor with most shooters... 41 is My favourite Magnum pistol caliber. l don't know of anyone selling/making SWAGED 41 bullets

 

[nicholst55]

If you're really concerned about the lube or lack thereof on those bullets, you could always relube them with Lee Liquid Alox, or the 45/45/10 variation of it. Inexpensive and pretty easy.

 

[ssv1761982]

Thanks everybody. I will give it a try.

 

[ssv1761982]

They appear to have a hard shiny coating on them and the don't feel like bare lead. Should be good.

 

[JSH]

Huh, I just bought a bunch of the same brand only for 38/357.
As far as leading. These swaged bullets are dead soft for the most part. To slow and they may skid in the throat. To fast and they could start to strip.
I would say a dose of bullseye myself. Titegroup may work, though I am no fan myself.
FYI, being a 41 mag fan Longshot has given me a lot of great groups.
Jeff

 

[jds holler]

You will want to shoot those with a very fast powder, and a very slow velocity. Clean your bore before, during, and after shooting them.

Worst leaded bore I ever had was from Speer swaged bullets. jd

 

[Boyd L.]

I can’t remember now, but it seems like an old Guns & Ammo article (probably by Jan Libourel or Bob Milek) indicated that these were “dry lubed” with a substance onto the irregular surface much as Jepp2 stated. Shoot them as intended and have a ball.
I shot several hundred of these back in 1980-85 through a New Model Blackhawk. Easily minute of soup can out to around 40-50 yards with a mild dose of Blue Dot. I wish I could remember the charge weight. In my defense it’s been 33 years.

 

[Gary O'Neal]

I know Bob Milek passed away, but I wonder what happened to Jan Libourel? Also Jon R. Saundra and Frank Petrini?

 

[divingin]

l don't know of anyone selling/making SWAGED 41 bullets

Berry's Bullets are supposedly swaged then plated. Dunno. Don't use them.

 

[Jan Libourel]

I know Bob Milek passed away, but I wonder what happened to Jan Libourel? Also Jon R. Saundra and Frank Petrini?

Well, I can tell what happened to Jan Libourel since I am he. I retired as editor of Gun World in August 2010. I resolved not to continue writing for several reasons. (1.) I just didn't think the bother and work were worth the meagre payout. (2.) I was very ill situated to continue gunwriting--I mean, I still have to live in California for various reasons, just for starters. (3.) To paraphrase my predecessor at Gun World Dean Grennell, I felt I had said everything I had to say that was worth saying about guns many times over, and I just felt it was time for me to shut up about the subject.

I am reminded of something early in my career at Guns & Ammo, around 1980. Elmer Keith used to send carbons of his extensive correspondence down to the editorial office, and I liked to read them. I was then and still am a great fan of the old boy. Anyway, somebody had written Elmer about handloads for his .45-70 and Elmer had recommended a charge of 53 grains of 2400 with I forget what bullet weight. I immediately called Elmer and told him of his mistake. The following dialogue ensued.

"I said 53 grains of 3031!"
"Elmer, I knew you meant 3031, but if you had said 3031, I wouldn't be calling you. It says 2400 on your carbon."
"Oh Christ, that would blow up the damn gun."
"I know. That's why I'm calling you."

Fortunately, Elmer's correspondent had put his telephone number on his letter, and I was able to contact him and avoid having his gun blow up!

Briefly, a man's just got to know when to hang it up.

Otherwise, I am in fine fettle. I celebrated my 76th birthday in March. I just finished a vigorous hour-long workout with Indian clubs and kettlebells. I try to get out the nearest indoor range and burn powder once a week, and I do quite a bit of handloading. It is incomparably more pleasant to be shooting for pleasure with my guns, guns that I love--which is quite different from shooting manufacturers' guns for articles.

I have no idea whatever happened to Frank Petrini. He was a very good writer, I thought. Didn't he vanish from Shooting Times back in the 1980s? I don't know what Jon R. Sundra is up to. I suspect I should have heard if he'd cashed in his chips, though.

 

[Gary O'Neal]

Wow. Very good to hear from you and thanks so much for taking the time to respond to my post. I've kept hundreds of copies of Shooting Times, Gun World and Guns and Ammo from the 70's and 80's. I haven't bought a gun magazine in 20 years. They're nothing now like they were back them. Nothing but paid ad articles and arrogant self promoting writers as far as I'm concerned. I still peruse the old issues and am taken back to that period of my life. You guys were the best. I hope you have continued good health and are enjoying your retirement.
Take care,
Gary O'Neal

 

[riflewoman]

None today could be more self-promoting than Les Bowman did back in the 1960s.

 

[retired]

let me warn you up front about soft lead in a magnum heck in any thing but a black powder gun.
be prepared to "get the lead out"
before you go to far, go to
"castboolits"
(do a search, it is not a site just part of one)
and do some reading, ask some questions.
i have never seen soft lead work well in modern guns.
38 target loads might be the exception.
i tried hornady's in my 9mm..the box quickly became a
bookend never to be loaded again.
( i cast and shoot both pistol and rifle, 380 thru 44 mag)

 

[JRS]

Proper bullet fit is the key. I shot soft cast bullets in my 41GNR for years at high velocities.

 

[Jan Libourel]

Wow. Very good to hear from you and thanks so much for taking the time to respond to my post. I've kept hundreds of copies of Shooting Times, Gun World and Guns and Ammo from the 70's and 80's. I haven't bought a gun magazine in 20 years. They're nothing now like they were back them. Nothing but paid ad articles and arrogant self promoting writers as far as I'm concerned. I still peruse the old issues and am taken back to that period of my life. You guys were the best. I hope you have continued good health and are enjoying your retirement.
Take care,
Gary O'Neal

Thanks so much for the kind words, Gary. I think most experienced shooters tend to outgrown the general-interest commercial gun mags after awhile. I know I had stopped reading them (except for the Rifleman, which I got as an NRA lifer) a few years before I was hired at G&A in 1979 (best break of my life!).

As to the more general topic here, I think the term "soft lead" is too vague. I think no man of sense would shoot pure or nearly pure lead bullets in anything but a black powder gun. However, I have observed that hard-cast lead bullets often deposit more leading in a barrel at low velocities than bullets cast from softer alloys. For that matter, cast bullets in general often create worse leading at low velocities than the same ones do at high velocities. Why this should be is somewhat mysterious. I have discussed this with various knowledgeable men like Mike Venturino. Among the theories are that hard cast bullets do not swage up at low velocities enough to prevent flame cutting of the base; alternatively, that bullets passing through the barrel at high velocities distribute the lubricant more efficiently; yet another: that bullets passing at low velocity give more time for lead to rub off in the barrel. Who knows?

In general, I do not believe hard-cast bullets are a panacea for barrel leading. I think softer bullet lubes are a big help in preventing leading, and, as others have suggested, proper sizing also helps. These days, I do all my handloading with commercially cast bullets. These generally work well, but they are all cast harder than the proverbial whore's heart, the lube grooves are all completely filled with hard, commercial lubricants, and they all seem to have very beveled bases to facilitate their use in high production loading tools. To my lights, this makes them less desirable than good home-cast bullets. If I were more dedicated, I'd get back into casting, but I guess I'm too old and lazy these days.

I can recall using the Alberts swaged lead bullets pictured above in my .41s. I don't recall any egregious leading, but I limited myself to light loads, about 4.0 of Bullseye, as I recall. However, this would have been well over 30 years ago, so my memory may be hazy.

The very worst barrel leading I ever experienced was back in the 1960s with those copper washed lead semi-wadcutters loaded in commercial .357 Magnum loads. They just coated the bores with lead, and it was horribly difficult to scour it out. I think those things did much to sour a whole generation of shooters on the virtues of cast bullets.

 

[shoot4fun]

Used to love reading Jan Libourel articles wherever they turned up. Back in the "good old days" it seemed the writings of the Gun Scribes was more colorful and fun to read than today. Maybe it was the writers or maybe it was the lack of legal eagles but the old guys seemed to have more fun. I was lucky to grow up reading Askins, Skelton, Keith, Libourel, Jordan and the like. Now it seems like all the "rags" are owned by one or two companies and all the articles are just rehashed and republished in their different products. Please, if you have any contact with him, have Boddington give up on all those damn "Obsolete Cartridge" articles he seems stuck on these days!