400 yards? With an AR?

[Leo_B]

So I've found Appleseed and am scheduled for a 25M clinic in April. I also found their KD clinics, 200 yards for .22 and 400 yards for CF. The only rifles I have for that are my Savage 25 Varminter in .22 Hornet, Universal M1 carbine, and two AR's. The first two are great but obviously not 400 yard options. The AR's are an 80% with a Troy upper and a complete BCM rifle. Since a good dose of accuracy is needed at 400 yards and I've never shot past 100 yards, and that almost 50 years ago, I'm looking to the wisdom and experience here for input.

I'd like to use my 80% to see that I did ok with that. But I'd also like to earn my patch. So given the goal of a patch what input would you give, especially in scope selection since neither currently has a scope. Thanks for any and all suggestions.

 

[Doug Beach]

400 yards is easy work for a decent AR with service sights, so reasonable optics will only make it easier.

 

[Jeff Porter]

The rifle does not care how far away the target is. The AR will shoot as well and easily at 400 as it does at 100 yards. Don’t let the six inches between your ears mess with the 400 yards to the target.

Btw. In rifle competitions I shoot in, any thing less than 500 yards we consider “ short line “. 500-800 is mid range and 800-1000 and beyond is long range. It is all shooting. Bullets will go where you point then. Relax and have fun with it.

 

[JB10]

I have one AR that i wanted for only longer ranges. While ive only had time for 300 yards, it shoots small groups. Just never had time to go out further. I do shoot heavier projectiles in just that AR.

 

[Leo_B]

Well, having shot once or twice at 100 yards almost 50 years ago but only 25 yards or less since it just seems incredibly far to say 400 yards. But I do know that's less than half a common distance for some of you guys.

 

[rustynut68]

I'm not familiar with the Appleseed rules. As a service rifle match participant, 100-600yd with iron sights or a 4x scope I'd be looking for a couple of things. Free floating handguard will help if you're using a sling or a bipod. 1-8 or 1-7 twist in your barrel then 75-77grn ammo will work well for you. If you're using 1-9 twist 69grn should work. Very few shoot irons anymore were I'm at. Factory ammo is available with these bullet weights if you don't reload and don't require single loading. A 20rd mag is easier than the 30s shooting prone. Keep notes for your sight adjustments at different ranges. Have fun.

 

[Leo_B]

I need to find out more specs on the BCM rifle since it's a standard model. And the Troy upper as it's a complete assembly too. If I can find model numbers to make inquiries on. I figured I'd need somewhat heavier bullets for 400 yards. I hope one of those uppers is a 1-8. I think that's a good compromise twist rate to cover a range of weights I might want. Lots to learn about all this though. And if you want to know more about all the Appleseed options: https://appleseedinfo.org/

 

[GetReal]

Some historical perspective...

Your basic M16, issues to military grunts, which is not a high quality rifle By any stretch was intended to consistently get hits out at six hundred yard. Using iron sights.

You can do this !

My Last range trip, I was getting consistent.Hits with my semi AR ( pictured) on ten inch plates at four hundred yards , with a fixed power 5x prism red dot that cost under three hundred dollars.

Jump in and have fun. ( grins)

 

[jelenko]

This thread got me to wondering.
Are there any factory ar's that don't have the barrel free floated from the handguard?

 

[Leo_B]

I've got to wrap my mind around the idea of it and that I can give it a good try at least. What ammo is better/best for 400 yards in an AR?

 

[RegionRat]

I've got to wrap my mind around the idea of it and that I can give it a good try at least. What ammo is better/best for 400 yards in an AR?

You will want to understand the twist of the barrel to make that decision.

 

[Leo_B]

I'm hopefully going to find enough markings on the uppers to get full specs from the companies. If I can't is there a foolproof way to determine twist? Or do I need a gunsmith to check for me? And check what chamber they have at the same time?

 

[RegionRat]

A fresh, tight bronze brush and cleaning rod (one that can freely rotate) is all you need to measure the twist, but hopefully it is marked on the bbl next to the caliber.

Mark a fixed point on the rod and gun, then measure how many inches it takes for a full revolution of the rod. Do this a few times to be sure, but it is usually very sensitive and repeatable within 1/4".

The markings will usually show you the caliber for example 223 REM or 5.56 NATO, or Wylde or something along those lines.

Many commercial AR15s in 0.224 are able to handle the pressure from ammo like Black Hills 77 SMK or similar, if they are at least an 8 twist that is.

If I am not mistaken, your Appleseed 25M class can be taken with a S&W MP15-22? Or even a decent Ruger 10-22? Just to get you up to speed on prone-sling and getting used to the drills without adding the stress of more energy.

Then maybe go practice on your own with the AR15 at those same targets before you take your 400 known distance class. The only difference going from 25 with rimfire to 100 with an AR15, will be the recoil and muzzle blast. Going from 100 to 400 is mostly about building on the foundations and adding come-ups and wind.

Good Luck and in for the reports!

 

[Leo_B]

I can't find any marking on the upper other than a capital A ~1.5" in front of the charging handle. That's on the Troy upper. The BCM rifle is marked 5.56 NATO on the frame on the mag well. I didn't check the barrel as it was a complete BCM rifle. I've emailed BCM with the S/N and asked for info on specs. I've done the same with Troy although I have nothing to give them so I'm sure it is hopeless. I'll have to try the rod and brush for twist rate.

My thought was just that. Go to the 25M with my 10/22 on order and after that try some of it with the AR. I know it will be more than the 10/22 but my recollection of my one time shooting an AR was it wasn't at all unpleasant to shoot. But that was 50 years ago at Fort Hood.

 

[round]

I can't find any marking on the upper other than a capital A ~1.5" in front of the charging handle. That's on the Troy upper. The BCM rifle is marked 5.56 NATO on the frame on the mag well. I didn't check the barrel as it was a complete BCM rifle. I've emailed BCM with the S/N and asked for info on specs. I've done the same with Troy although I have nothing to give them so I'm sure it is hopeless. I'll have to try the rod and brush for twist rate.

My thought was just that. Go to the 25M with my 10/22 on order and after that try some of it with the AR. I know it will be more than the 10/22 but my recollection of my one time shooting an AR was it wasn't at all unpleasant to shoot. But that was 50 years ago at Fort Hood.

Just pull the handguard and look elsewhere on the barrel.... most likely it's marked.

 

[Stumpy1]

Don’t let the six inches between your ears mess with the 400 yards to the target.

Jeff, can i use this? What a great way of putting things in perspective!

Frank

 

[Oso]

This thread got me to wondering.
Are there any factory ar's that don't have the barrel free floated from the handguard?

Yes, older models (pre-ban up to early 90’s) that feature the tapered round black polymer hand guard that attaches at receiver and behind A2 front sight/gas block. Newer models have free floated barrels and feature aluminum handguards with either Picatinny rail, Keymod &/or M-lok attachment point.

 

[Oso]

If rules permit the you’ll want to upgrade the trigger. The milspec trigger is too heavy and will hurt accuracy on target.

AR15 can be almost as accurate as bolt rifle. The only limitation/hurdle is that AR15 has more moving parts. A well-built AR15 with quality barrel, light crisp trigger, solid fit of barrel to upper receiver are steps in right direction. If there is slop in the gun ( loose fitting components) then more of challenge for consistent, repeatable results.

That said most AR15 with 3x-4x optic featuring a BDC can easily be walked out to ring steel plates from 25 yards to 600 yards. Think what ACOG (4x) with its BDC did for troops in Middle East.

 

[Jeff Porter]

Jeff, can i use this? What a great way of putting things in perspective!

Frank

Yes. A work buddy of mine has a notebook he kept of stuff I have said in meetings over the years. Not quite as quotable as the Louisiana Senator Kennedy but occasionally is get some thing right.

 

[RegionRat]

I can't find any marking on the upper other than a capital A ~1.5" in front of the charging handle. That's on the Troy upper. The BCM rifle is marked 5.56 NATO on the frame on the mag well. I didn't check the barrel as it was a complete BCM rifle. I've emailed BCM with the S/N and asked for info on specs. I've done the same with Troy although I have nothing to give them so I'm sure it is hopeless. I'll have to try the rod and brush for twist rate.

My thought was just that. Go to the 25M with my 10/22 on order and after that try some of it with the AR. I know it will be more than the 10/22 but my recollection of my one time shooting an AR was it wasn't at all unpleasant to shoot. But that was 50 years ago at Fort Hood.

Like @round said above, you will have to take a look at the actual barrel. The barrel is what carries the markings, the upper can be re-barreled to many different calibers and twists. Hope that makes sense.

Many times, the design of the handguard covers the markings, and sometimes you can use a light to sneak a view through holes. Otherwise, it takes getting the handguard off (and then back on).

Many newer handguards are easy to remove and replace, others are not. That makes it a toss-up between getting a friend to help or just using the cleaning rod trick to check the twist on your AR rigs.

If we had steered you in advance, we would have recommended a steppingstone approach, so an M&P 15-22 would have given you a familiar platform to graduate to running a Precision AR in centerfire later.

When you go to those classes, ask around about clubs at ranges near you that shoot the kinds of matches you are interested in and get someone there to help guide you before you buy your rigs or ammo. This way, you have a better start and can relax and learn the ropes while you shoot.

There is a wide range of games you may like in 22LR that are becoming more popular since they can be shot on small square ranges. Ones like CMP Rimfire Sporter, NRL22, and even Smallbore Silhouette if you can shoot offhand.