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400-series SS barrels

My understanding was that the main difference was the reduced sulphur content. This is one of many cases where my knowledge is limited at best though. WH
 
I took the drop off of a 400 Mod barrel over to A&M Tech this morning. I also took a 416R drop.

They are going to do a RC hardness test on both for comparison, and a chemical work up on the 400 Mod drop to ascertain the alloy make up.

He said he might have the results Friday.
 
According to John Krieger(via a "Believe The Target" podcast) analysis showed it is a pretty standard 400 series with a little bit of nickel added for wear resistance.

Frank Green also talked a bit on another episode of the podcast about how they came up with it, but nothing about the makeup.
 
Well do they specificly tell you the steel they are using or it is nebulious and just 400 Series telling you nothing under the "propritary" or "trade secret" ND nonsense????

I ask because anyone in the industry could find out very quickly for not much money at all. If you know what series or type of steel your starting with or the intended use of the sample "PMI guns" or "XRF analyzers" would narrow it down real fast to a fairly short list. These devices look like a nail gun with a smart phone on top.

Yes you would want to do more detailed analysis before order a few tons of it but that would narrow it down. You can also just take a look at what 400 Series steels the few remaining steel mills in USA and Canada make and what you want in a barrel steel.

416R is garbage because it is resulpherized to make it machine like butter. Now that Crucible is down and out for now it would not suprise me if 416R total output might be down meaning that large OEM's will be purchasing a lot more of what remains up driving cost up, suply down, and forcing larger purchases just to get in line. That is speculation on my part though. Add in Tarrifs on steel etc....

No one that is actualy a lover of rifles and barrels would chose 416R based on it's actual characteristics it is and always has been about $$$ and publics ignorance of just how bad 416R is as an almost stainless steel.

Because 416R is so soft and machinable it extends tooling life as compared to 4150 or better. 416R improves the odds of turning out a very uniform barrel because it is soft and machines very well. 4150 is ancient not that great either but the industry refuses to use modern steels in line with the insane prices they charge today.

There was a time long ago when you saw more variety in barrel and action steels.


At this time point it is not just about the steels chemical make up but also the grain structure. We have the ability to control the grain structure of steel today beyound just what is in the alloy but that is a deep dive.

Some examples of testing prices:

  • Chemical Composition:
    • Testing 1-4 metals using Atomic Emission Spectroscopy (AES) with a 21-day turnaround can cost $58.60 per sample.
    • Analyzing 11-22 metals via AES with the same turnaround time can cost $80.60 per sample.
    • Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry (ICP-MS) can cost $20 for a single element and $45 for up to 15 elements, with an additional $10 if mercury is included.
  • Mechanical Testing:
    • A tensile test can cost between $12 and $45 depending on factors such as diameter and alloy.
    • Hardness testing (Brinell, Rockwell) costs $30.
    • An impact test may be $40.
  • Metallography:
    • Cross-section analysis generally costs $75 per mount with basic measurements and digital images.
Other Factors Affecting Cost:
  • Turnaround time: Quicker analysis times are typically more expensive.
  • Number of elements analyzed: More elements generally lead to higher costs.
  • Type of steel: Analyzing more complex alloys or those requiring specialized equipment may be more expensive.
  • Sample preparation: This can be an additional charge, particularly if the sample is not already in a suitable form for testing.
General Observations:
  • Many labs have a minimum charge for services.
 
By the way companies do not tell customers anything that their competitors already know because not knowing is better than having a well educated customer base. Mystery, voodoo, and marketing trumps facts for 70% of buyer's only 10% to 30% of people in a hobby want to make educated purchases most want to buy the dream not the utility.

One of the first jobs I got when I was downsized from General Motors the last time was in sales. When I was downsized from GM the last time around they offered me Military Contractor money to travel abroad and train the engineers that they had hired to replace my team at GM. I told them to go pound sand!

You paint pictures with words that stir emotions when selling to the public less is often more!
 
You could easily add in other elements to 4140 type steels to arrive at better machining of chrome-moly steel that is what get's you 4340 and 4350. Most notably the added Nickle Content improves machinability, improves heat resistance, strength but the more nickle you add the more the resistance to abrasion is reduced at some point. Waspaloy is a high Nickle Steel and is used in jet engines and Nickle content is one of the things that held early Russian jet engines back that they learned from Rolls Royce. So you get a steel that can be heat treated to a harder level while still being very tough and ductile. That is why forged crankshafts and rods where often 4340 and 4350 early on.

Winchester was using high Nickle Steel back in the old west and also used a lot of Nickle plating on parts. Nickle also adds to corrosion resistance.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth and CZ was still making actual Mauser Based bolt actions with hammer forged barrels they offered anyone purchasing rifles in bulk from them I think it was 7 different steel alloys they could choose for the barrels. I am talking about importers. The website used to have drop down menues with this information. I am not sure it was ever available in English though?

When it comes to steel the devil is inthe dtails for sure but one this is very clear I can not think of any application where as an expert in material science I would ever ask them to add back in or increase the sulfur content of a steel unless I wanted to turn out a cheap product by comprmising the raw materialt o maximize tool life! For the record that happens all the time in manufacturing you either compromise the materials, the method of manufacturing or the long term health of the workers by using dangerious coolants or coolant/lubricants in ratio's that are not ideal for human health! Ask me how I know?

Lothar Walther wont tell you what their L50 is many have guessed in the past that it is 15-5 or 17-4. I think for as longs as I can remeber Borden Actions are 17-4 if purchased as SS actions. I think my now ancient Nesika Bay Action might have been 17-4 but I can not recall now.
 
mauser284 said:
. I think for as longs as I can remeber Borden Actions are 17-4 if purchased as SS actions. I think my now ancient Nesika Bay Action might have been 17-4 but I can not recall now.
Click to expand...
Borden recievers are 416.
Machineability and hardness are NOT the same thing.

Most of the big volume barrel manufacturers use hammer forging. 416R is not suitable for hammer forging, so I believe 410 is the alloy of choice, IIRC.
 
butchlambert said:
Did you mean Lother Walther's magic steel?
Click to expand...
LW-50
I've done some reading on LW-50, wondering if I want to try one
I've heard many Smiths will cuss at it when trying to chamber it
Also - they may last twice as long, but I have not read about them being much more accurate
So for accuracy buffs, they would rather buy and use up 2 Kriegers/Bartleins for the same price as
One LW-50

Info taken from here Post #22

Lothar Walther vs Krieger barrels

Top F-Class and benchrest gunsmiths in Europe do not use Lothar Walther if other barrels are available (or rather the time to wait for US parts is acceptable). Even in Germany Lothar Walther doesn't have the reputation to be the best. Many US manufacturers are regarded at least as high as LW or...
www.longrangehunting.com
LW-50 = 410 stainless. (no Sulfur)

Disclaimer: Alloy isn't everything. The quality and properties of each can very quite a bit. Grain refinement and how well the alloying elements are dispersed (precipitated within the iron matrix) or dissolved if you would. If a steel is cooled too slow they can form groups and carbides (like rocks in concrete) that can give an area of weakness. If cooled to fast, cracks can propagate and cause differential hardening, which stresses the steel, or simply too hard (too much detail to explain here).

What's that mean and why? The reason is complex, but not hard to understand. The most obvious is the .6% sulfur in 416. The sulfur is an issue; it can lump together in pockets or areas where it is richer then others. This makes it super easy to cut in one area, and difficult in another. But more over, it burns...yes, imagine that. So as you shoot, very hot gas (up to 4500 degrees for a nanosecond) burn the sulfur out and create pockets or pitting in your barrel. It also aids in corrosion in that area. So, it is necessary to VAR (vacuum arc remelt) or remelt the steel to refine it. This helps, but there is still sulfur in your steel.

410 is sulfur free, for the most part. So it solves two of those issues right away, but also the supply LW gets is very high quality 410 with uniform grain and very good properties.

Sulfur is a lubricant. It is a great aid to machining. It is the base we commonly know a Moly or moly lube, which is Molybdenum Disulfide. This is why 416R cuts so well and uniformly...but would it give you better properties to your barrel life, no.

This is the reason 416R cuts so much better, and why LW pulls or pushes a button to make their barrels.

Another reason is LW barrels are all tight. Yes, they are usually about a full thousandth tight. This gives a better gas seal that reduces gas blow-by, which is the #1 cause of barrel erosion.

Studies show 70-85% of barrel wear is from gas erosion. Unless the barrel is super heated (above working temp of that steel), then the rifling is simply smashed down.
 
Last edited:
ELR LVR said:
LW-50
I've done some reading on LW-50, wondering if I want to try one
I've heard many Smiths will cuss at it when trying to chamber it
Also - they may last twice as long, but I have not read about them being much more accurate
So for accuracy buffs, they would rather buy and use up 2 Kriegers/Bartleins for the same price as
One LW-50

Info taken from here Post #22

Lothar Walther vs Krieger barrels

Top F-Class and benchrest gunsmiths in Europe do not use Lothar Walther if other barrels are available (or rather the time to wait for US parts is acceptable). Even in Germany Lothar Walther doesn't have the reputation to be the best. Many US manufacturers are regarded at least as high as LW or...
www.longrangehunting.com
LW-50 = 410 stainless. (no Sulfur)

Disclaimer: Alloy isn't everything. The quality and properties of each can very quite a bit. Grain refinement and how well the alloying elements are dispersed (precipitated within the iron matrix) or dissolved if you would. If a steel is cooled too slow they can form groups and carbides (like rocks in concrete) that can give an area of weakness. If cooled to fast, cracks can propagate and cause differential hardening, which stresses the steel, or simply too hard (too much detail to explain here).

What's that mean and why? The reason is complex, but not hard to understand. The most obvious is the .6% sulfur in 416. The sulfur is an issue; it can lump together in pockets or areas where it is richer then others. This makes it super easy to cut in one area, and a difficult in another. But more over, it burns...yes, imagine that. So as you shoot, very hot gas (up to 4500 degrees for a nanosecond) burn the sulfur out and create pockets or pitting in your barrel. It also aids in corrosion in that area. So, it is necessary to VAR (vacuum arc remelt) or remelt the steel to refine it. This helps, but there is still sulfur in your steel.

410 is sulfur free, for the most part. So it solves two of those issues right away, but also the supply LW gets is very high quality 410 with uniform grain and very good properties.

Sulfur is a lubricant. It is a great aid to machining. It is the base we commonly know a Moly or moly lube, which is Molybdenum Disulfide. This is why 416R cuts so well and uniformly...but would it give you better properties to your barrel life, no.

This is the reason 416R cuts so much better, and why LW pulls or pushes a button to make their barrels.

Another reason is LW barrels are all tight. Yes, they are usually about a full thousandth tight. This gives a better gas seal that reduces gas blow-by, which is the #1 cause of barrel erosion.

Studies show 70-85% of barrel wear is from gas erosion. Unless the barrel is super heated (above working temp of that steel), then the rifling is simply smashed down.
Click to expand...
You make some great points, especially concerning the actual quality of the steel as a result of the Manufacturing process.
 
Jackie, didn't you win one in the old days and then gifted it to another shooter. Pete Pieper chambered many of them for a so called gun writer and told horror stories about the large difference in bore and groove diameter.
 
butchlambert said:
Jackie, didn't you win one in the old days and then gifted it to another shooter. Pete Pieper chambered many of them for a so called gun writer and told horror stories about the large difference in bore and groove diameter.
Click to expand...
didnt the lands chip the flutes because they were so hard??
 
butchlambert said:
Jackie, didn't you win one in the old days and then gifted it to another shooter. Pete Pieper chambered many of them for a so called gun writer and told horror stories about the large difference in bore and groove diameter.
Click to expand...
Yes. That was quite some time back.

I cannot remember the name of guy that was pushing the LW barrels back then, but I bought one in 1-14 twist for 6PPC, chambered it, and it was not competitive. As I remember, it machined a lot like 17-4, which we cut a lot of at my Shop?

Then, I had one that was donated as a prize and just gave it to someone, I can’t remember who.
 
jackieschmidt said:
Yes. That was quite some time back.

I cannot remember the name of guy that was pushing the LW barrels back then, but I bought one in 1-14 twist for 6PPC, chambered it, and it was not competitive. As I remember, it machined a lot like 17-4, which we cut a lot of at my Shop?

Then, I had one that was donated as a prize and just gave it to someone, I can’t remember who.
Click to expand...
He was a jerk, wasn't his name Woody at LW or were you speaking of the so called writer?
 
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