Still new to reloading. Started with .223 REM. Then .38 S&W. So Today, I reloaded 5 rounds of .38 Special. Small pistol match primers, with 5.0 gr CFE Pistol, and 140 grain lead bullet (flat nose). I am using the Lee 3 die set. The Lee book calls for TOL of 1.550. I did TOL of 1.480 (that is what my factory ammo was.). I shot the five rounds at 25 yards and all hit target within a 1” grouping. There is no crimp. I do not think the Lee dies will crimp with flat nose bullets correct? I tried a couple different set ups with my dies and the adjustment screw on the seating did just seemed to seat the bullet deeper. Do I need to crimp? I see I can get a crimp die but don’t know if that will work on flat nosed bullets. I appreciate any help.
38 Special
- Thread starter HVFDFIREFIGHTER
- Start date
The Lee factory crimp die will crimp that case, no matter what bullet you use. As to whether you need to crimp or not, that would depend on what you're shooting. For me, I don't want my wheel guns to lock up if the bullet moves from recoil, so I crimp those. For my lever guns, I also crimp (more of a safety reason...tubular magazine explosion). I also load mine to COAL specs, not what you would typically measure a factory round to. And if you're loading shorter then COAL spec, you are increasing pressure. Caution when doing that is prudent. Especially the amount difference from the COAL spec. you did (-.070").
Last edited:
Thanks for the info. I am happy with the grouping.I’m definitely not an expert marksman I just like the fact that I can reload my own ammo and then spend an afternoon shooting without breaking the bank.
Whether the bullet is flat nose or round nose, or hollow point has nothing to do with crimp.
Most bullets for revolver cartridges have a crimp groove, i.e., a cannelure where the bullet should be crimped. The reason for crimping is twofold, (1) to prevent the bullet from moving forward in adjoining cylinders under recoil, and (2) to provide uniform ignition, especially with high density ball powders. Speer conducted extensive tests in the 70's on the latter. Granted, you're getting great accuracy in your existing load so issue 2 above may not apply but issue (1) may.
There are two types of crimps: roll and taper. A taper crimp requires a special taper crimp die and is a good choice for light recoiling target reloads. It is also used in semi-auto pistol bullets that don't have cannelures.
The roll crimp is preferred for heavy recoiling cartridges such as the 44 or 357 magnums. Most pistol seating dies contain a roll crimp feature. The die mfg. has instructions how to set up the die to use the roll crimp feature. The roll crimp, if used, needs to be carefully set so you don't over crimp the case causing a bulge. It should be applied so that there is smooth uniform roll of the case into the cannelure without bulging or noticeable crushing / thinning of the case at the crimp. Look a factory cartridge, that will give you a good idea of the amount of crimp that should be used.
I crimp all my pistol reloads because I don't want to take a chance on a bullet locking up the cylinder. When I shot competition with light hollow base wadcutter loads in a 38 special, I used a taper crimp.
The seating die can be set up to both seat the bullet and crimp at the same time. Some prefer to do it separately, I do it at the same time.
Most bullets for revolver cartridges have a crimp groove, i.e., a cannelure where the bullet should be crimped. The reason for crimping is twofold, (1) to prevent the bullet from moving forward in adjoining cylinders under recoil, and (2) to provide uniform ignition, especially with high density ball powders. Speer conducted extensive tests in the 70's on the latter. Granted, you're getting great accuracy in your existing load so issue 2 above may not apply but issue (1) may.
There are two types of crimps: roll and taper. A taper crimp requires a special taper crimp die and is a good choice for light recoiling target reloads. It is also used in semi-auto pistol bullets that don't have cannelures.
The roll crimp is preferred for heavy recoiling cartridges such as the 44 or 357 magnums. Most pistol seating dies contain a roll crimp feature. The die mfg. has instructions how to set up the die to use the roll crimp feature. The roll crimp, if used, needs to be carefully set so you don't over crimp the case causing a bulge. It should be applied so that there is smooth uniform roll of the case into the cannelure without bulging or noticeable crushing / thinning of the case at the crimp. Look a factory cartridge, that will give you a good idea of the amount of crimp that should be used.
I crimp all my pistol reloads because I don't want to take a chance on a bullet locking up the cylinder. When I shot competition with light hollow base wadcutter loads in a 38 special, I used a taper crimp.
The seating die can be set up to both seat the bullet and crimp at the same time. Some prefer to do it separately, I do it at the same time.
SSL
Gold $$ Contributor
Not being a smart a$$ here, but you do understand that it is the die, not the seating stem, that crimps? If you want a crimp, seat a bullet to the length you want (recommended COAL) and then back your seating stem out several turns. Then slowly screw your seating die in and run the case back into the die while adjusting the die lower in small increments until it starts to crimp the case mouth. Decide on your crimp amount and then, with the case fully inserted into the die, adjust your seating stem down until it firmly meets the bullet nose. Lock it in place. The next round you load should seat the bullet to the desired length and finish by crimping at the full extent of the stroke.
Or, better yet, get a Lee Factory Crimp Die, adjust your seating die to only seat the bullet, and use the properly adjusted LFCD to provide the final crimp. That die also 'smooths' the case diameter as a final touch to ensure smooth chambering.
Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
Lee 3 die set in a single stage press, I would suggest you visit their website. There are videos there that are better than the written instructions for setting up, especially the seating/crimping. Keep accurate notes so you can replicate loadings.
Need to move the case up by turning the die down, that screw is just for the bullet seating depth.
I don't have LEE dies but I imagine they are like most others and have a built in crimp shoulder in them. You can set them up to crimp when the bullets are seated, but anytime any of the components are changed, the die setting will have to be changed also. I don't recommend doing this, for getting the optimal crimp it should be done as a separate step from bullet seating. My recommendation is to purchase a separate crimp die and use it for that purpose only. A reason to crimp your ammo is to get the most from your powder charge. All smokeless powders work their best (and cleanest) when at the upper end of their pressure range, putting a sufficient crimp helps to increase the pressure allowing the powder to work at it's optimum point. Another reason to crimp is to keep bullets from moving under recoil as mentioned in another post.
Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
With my Lee 3 die pistol I seat without crimp, turn seater screw out a couple turns, then turn die body down for desired crimp. OAL doesn't change but a light crimp is the finishing stage. I'm loading shooting/practice ammo. Competition ammo I would alter the method, slightly.
SSL
Gold $$ Contributor
Nothing at all wrong with that other than a lot of adjust-readjust. Try a Lee Factory Crimp Die and avoid all that. Just adjust your seating die to seat only and then swap to the FCD for crimp and final size of the overall cartridge.
Agreed.
divingin
Gold $$ Contributor
What are you shooting the 38Spl in? Revolver?
38Spl doesn't generate a whole lot of recoil, so a crimp (per se) isn't generally required. You will still need the die to remove any flare that was put on the case mouth though (which involves the crimp feature of the seating die, unless you have a dedicated crimp die.)
If you're shooting a semi-auto in 38Spl (S&W Model 52 or a 1911; maybe a couple of others) a decent amount of roll crimp will aid in feeding. As noted above, going too far will bulge the case further down. Just slightly roll the case mouth inward to remove the sharp edge.
You said you adjusted length to match factory ammo - that is not necessary, and may, in some instances, be dangerous. If you're blindly adjusting to match a given cartridge, adjust seating depth to get the bases of the bullets to match, not the noses (assuming doing so doesn't cause a too-long cartridge.) That way you're not altering case capacity, so the only pressure effects will be from bullet weight and drag.
And I agree that any pistol shooting 1" at 25 yds is exceptional.
38Spl doesn't generate a whole lot of recoil, so a crimp (per se) isn't generally required. You will still need the die to remove any flare that was put on the case mouth though (which involves the crimp feature of the seating die, unless you have a dedicated crimp die.)
If you're shooting a semi-auto in 38Spl (S&W Model 52 or a 1911; maybe a couple of others) a decent amount of roll crimp will aid in feeding. As noted above, going too far will bulge the case further down. Just slightly roll the case mouth inward to remove the sharp edge.
You said you adjusted length to match factory ammo - that is not necessary, and may, in some instances, be dangerous. If you're blindly adjusting to match a given cartridge, adjust seating depth to get the bases of the bullets to match, not the noses (assuming doing so doesn't cause a too-long cartridge.) That way you're not altering case capacity, so the only pressure effects will be from bullet weight and drag.
And I agree that any pistol shooting 1" at 25 yds is exceptional.
Belatedly, I also wanted to congratulate you. .38 Special is where I started reloading in my Mom's kitchen with a Wamadet press, CH dies, couldn't afford the pricey ones then. It's about the most responsive and forgiving cartridge you could work on, just don't over-complicate things. At 38 Spec pressures and velocities, not much if any crimp is needed. I truly wish you the very best of luck.
Similar experience here. Agreed. It is a great case with which to start reloading. And if you want something stronger than 38 Special once you are experienced you just use the same dies and start with 357 magnum.
John
i've got a model 28 S&W and at one time considered loading 357 loads in 38 case for the 28. But common sense prevailed and I was made aware that they could get used in 38 revolvers. It didn't seem like an issue at the time but now the kids and wife all have little 38spec 5 shot revolvers that would not handle the hotter loads
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.