35rem IMR 3031 - Help with load, please!

[Smiles Welch]

I recently picked up a sweet old Remington Model 141 in 35rem while I was in Alaska, and I'm trying to work up an accurate load for it, but I'm having trouble getting groups that are even worthy to be called groups. I'm talking like 12-14" 3-shot spreads! I've been reloading for a couple of years now, and I've never had a problem with quickly acquiring 1" groups before. I guess encountering this hurdle is just a part of the reloading journey.

I have a bunch of mixed cases, and all of them seem to have pretty much the same capacity. I'm using IMR 3031 powder, because that is an old trusty for the 35rem, and because I have 8lbs of it. Winchester LR primers. And I bought a bunch of Hunter's Supply 190gr .358 cast bullets to load.

I always check all of my manuals and do a bunch of reading online before I endeavor to find a new load for a gun, and it seems to be the case that most everyone is finding their best IMR 3031 load with 180-200gr bullets to be around 35-36gr (give or take just a smidgen). My problem is that once I start getting above 33.5gr, then the powder starts becoming compressed when I seat my bullets to the cannelure (which gives me a perfect 2.215 OAL). So at 35gr the compression is so great that the bullets seat around 2.240. So far I have only done my test loads from 33.5-35gr, 3 rounds of each, at .5gr increments. My guess is that all of them are simply overloaded for the bullets that I have, but like I said, that's my guess, based on my limited reloading experience.

So before I waste a bunch of time and reloading supplies, can someone please give me a suggestion as to what I should do? I'm confident that I can find a good load with this powder/bullet combination, but I don't want to be wasteful as I move forward. That's why I'm asking for your input. I know the rifle is not the problem, because I fired 4 rounds of factory Federal 200 rounds at 50 yds, and pretty much made one ragged hole in the paper. Thank you for any advice that you more experienced guys offer me. I really appreciate it. Once I find a good load, I will happily post it for anyone else who may benefit from it.

 

[AckleymanII]

I worked up a load last year for a Marlin 35 Rem with a 3-9 Leupold. After doing some research, many liked the 200g Hornady FTX loaded with close to a max load of Leverolution.

It took me 9 shots to get 3/4" groups as so many guys were shooting marlins with the same bullet and powder. Leverolution, 200g FTX, crimped, right at a max load.

Groups were very impressive at 150 yards, and bullet stated taking a nose dive at 200.

you should probably clean the rifle very, very well. Avoid the lead bullets, they are another can of worms.

Use all the same brand of brass, don't mix them up during load development. Again, I would forget the cast bullets. I shot cast bullet comp for a short while, we used pure linotype and hardened the bullets we cast in order to keep from leading the barrel, in addition always used a gas check on the bullets.

 

[7887mm08]

I agree with AckleymanII, CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN,and check the crown also.

 

[Ggmac]

Eliminate the lead bullets for now . Buy some good old fashioned jacketed lead bullets somewhere in the middle of the weight group of factory loads .
( old books help ) currently there’s probably only one or two to choose from .
Use a powder suggested in the older load books BUT start at lowest recommended charge when using current powder.
DO NOT EXPECT GROUPS UNDER 2” , if you get a group smaller you are blessed . I could never get anything smallerthan 2” from the 141 .
Its design is just intended for hunting under 200 yds , more likely 100 yds .
Check bore for pitting , Alaska is hard on weapons ,especially older traditional blued steel .
Buy 20new cases and work up with those , eliminating as many variables as possible, neck tension , brass brittleness, length case vol etc .
Then when you get it as good as it can , start playing with the lead .
Good luck .

 

[JEFFPPC]

I loaded IMR 4198 with 200 Hornadys. Accurate and deadly on deer.This was in a 141 also.

 

[Cap'n]

The 190 grain bullet you are using looks a bit unusual because the cannelure is so far forward on the bullet body if you compare it with jacketed bullets of similar size. The Sierra jacketed 200 grain bullet has a COAL of 2.475 which I believe is the length when crimped at the cannelure. Perhaps what you are trying to use is just not a good bullet and powder combination. Looks to me that if you want to crimp in the cannelure of the cast bullet you need to use something other than 3031 powder, or crimp the bullet in a grease groove to allow more room for powder in the case. Personally, I'd use a jacketed bullet and go with one of the bullet manufacturer's suggested powders and COAL.

 

[Three44s]

I would shelve the cast boolits and go with jacketed for a spell.

Go to the Cast Boolits forum when you are ready to dive back into non-jacketed and enter the vortex!

Three44s

 

[JSH]

As others have mentioned skip the cast for now.
Size is king with cast. Sounds like from what you mention on patterns rather than groups you could have more than one issue.
3031 may be ideal for the 35 Remington but I wouldn’t say it is ideal with cast. I have shot tons of lead through a 35 Remington, I have had luck with Unique,4227 and SR4759(if you can find any.

 

[joshb]

I just wanted to say Nice purchase! I have 2 of those old guns and they hold a special place in my memory. I have my Grandfather’s in 30 Remington and my father’s in 35. They hunted a lot of deer with those guns!
I have boxes of old ammo for them, so I haven’t needed to work on loads yet.
Good luck!

PS: Welcome to the forum!
Josh

 

[Smiles Welch]

Thank you everyone for your replies, and for welcoming me to the forum. I have gained some good help from this forum since I started reloading, just by reading existing posts, but I haven't needed to create my own post until now.

I find it interesting that so many of you are saying to lean away from the cast bullets (at least for now), because I have had great success with lead every time so far in developing loads for other calibers (32-40, 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, and 45 auto rim come to mind right away). I know the cast bullets are a kind of like the difference between playing softball and baseball (in that it's very much the same game, only quite different, and having slightly different rules). I just haven't, so far, experienced any problems with hard cast, so it is admittedly difficult for me to give up on it so quickly at this point.

AckleymanII, 7887mm 08 and Ggmac... The crown is good, the rifling is sharp, and the gun is very clean inside and out. Like I said, I shot one ragged hole at 50yds with the factory 200gr Federal ammo, so I know the gun is not the problem.

Ggmac... Yeah, a 2" group at 100yds will satisfactory with me, given the gun and round that I'm using. Fortunately, I live in heavily wooded hill country, so anything over 100yds pretty much doesn't exist in my world, unless I pay a visit to my local bun club and sit at the 300yd bench. But I don't plan on ever doing that with this gun! I save that range for my .308's!

MikeHoma... I thought the same thing about the cannelure seeming pretty far forward on this bullet (which Hunter's Supply advertises as a 35rem bullet). That is probably why I'm getting compressed loads at a lower grain count than most folks do with 3031. I have purchased Hunter's Supply bullets before (for the 32-40 that I no longer own), and had no issue with them, so I felt ok about buying from them again. Hmmm. Also, I did try to crimp a round in the most forward grease groove, but when I chambered and extracted it, there were clearly rifling marks on the bullet, so I don't think that will work. Am I wrong about that not working? I always try to keep my bullets seated just shy of the rifling.

JSH... I do have a pound or two or IMR 4227. I will certainly try that, as some of my books mention that as a usable powder. I was just really hoping to find a load for the 3031, since so many sources speak highly of it for this caliber, and since I have 8lbs of it. If I find that I have to ditch the 3031, then I will try 4227 next. That is the powder I use for reloading both of my .22 K-hornets. Thank you.

Here is what my manuals read for IMR 3031, using bullets similar to what I have:

Lyman 44th and 45th: 150gr cast; 30.0-39.0gr
206gr cast; 28.0-36.0gr; Accuracy load: 35.1gr IMR3031

Those are the sources we know we can all trust, but I also read of numerous other people having success with 3031 and cast, and most have found their accuracy loads falling somewhere around 35-36gr.

I know, I know, I should have started my test loads at 28 or 29gr, not 33.5gr. Lesson learned. You don't need to take me to school on that. What I think I will do for now, before I try a different powder (4227, and then maybe 4198) and/or ditch the cast bullets I already bought, I will load some test rounds in .5gr increments starting at 28gr, working up to 33gr. When I get around to doing that I will let you know what my targets look like.

Thank you again for all of your input. It is very much appreciated. I've learned a lot, but I also know I still have much to learn.

 

[JSH]

The cartridges you mention that you have used cast in are pretty much all well known cast bullet shooters. For the most part they are straight walled cases. They always seem to be CB friendly.

Bottle necked cases can be a chore at times to get them to digest cast. The 35 Remington is known to have issues. I would do a chamber cast with cerosafe to get a good idea of the throat.
Slug the chamber and the muzzle. (Slugging these two first may well answer why the pattern rather than a group)

That rifle model may well have seen over zealous cleaning from the muzzle by well meaning individuals.
If the bore is larger than the throat, there is one thing that will cause you issues. Gas check may or may not fix it.
You mention “hard cast”. Well I am here to tell you a CB that is hard cast is not the do all fix all as has been poked in our face for years and years. Yet I still hear and see it on a regular basis.
As I mention size is king, period.
Then alloy and lube, in no particular order.
Majority of commercial lubes are no better than crayon. They are made to stay on during shipping and handeling, and look “purty”.

 

[Zero333]

I only had 1 experience like the one you're having.

My problem ended up being the bullets.