.308 WIN RESIZING ISSUE

[kwtolman]

First, I need to reassure you that I am an experienced reloader (over 50 years).

I am encountering a problem that I have never seen before and have been unable to solve. The issue is with a .308 Win that I have shot for several years. Round count in this Criterion Match Chambered barrel is 953.

About 6 weeks ago, I began processing a batch of once-fired, un-turned Lapua brass. After resizing a couple using a .336" bushing in my Redding type S die, I noticed that there was a noticeable ridge just above the neck/shoulder junction (right where the bushing stops neck sizing). The ridge was pronounced enough that I could catch a fingernail on it. Using the Sinclair concentricity gauge, I checked for runout. The sized pieces of brass were .003 to .005" out of round, way beyond my acceptable limit. So I began troubleshooting.

I hand decapped a few pieces of fired, unsized brass and checked concentricity. They were all under .001". I measured the diameter of the fired necks, they .342" (normal for this barrel) and neck wall thickness varied at about .0145", typical for Lapua brass of this caliber. I pulled the top off of the sizing die and removed the bushing and decapping stem (I do not use a sizing button on the stem). I then sized several more pieces of fired brass and checked concentricity. Runout was under .001". So I decided that something must be wrong with either the top of the die or the bushing. I ordered a new die and bushing.

When they came, I started the process again with exactly the same result. So, I decided to order two larger bushings. a .337" and a .338". They came today. I knew that they would be pushing the limit as far as neck tension was concerned since the loaded round measures .337". But I wanted to try to eliminate the ridge thinking that that might eliminate the runout. Well, it didn't work. The .337" bushing still creates a bit of a ridge on the neck and at least 2/3d's of the rounds come out with .003 to.004" of runout. The .338" bushing doesn't create a ridge on the neck but the runout issue is still the same and neck tension on a loaded round is only about .0005".

I load for many different rifles and handguns, shoot F-Open locally with a 6.5x47 Lapua and a .284 Win and in all my reloading, I haven't encountered such a problem. What could possibly be the issue? I am frustrated and out of ideas! Please give me a hand.

 

[mike06]

I have been having the same problem with my Type S die also with a Forester Bushing Bump die both put run out in my fired cases. To fixed the problem I went back to my Redding Body Die then I use my Redding Bushing Neck Die now my run out is .002 max or less. I seen others on this site talk about the same thing. Also I will resize the neck in two stages. My rifles are factory Rem 700 5R GEN 2 and a Ruger Precision both 308.

 

[Fred B.]

Are you using a neck die or full length die?

 

[Fred B.]

You might also want to check the cases for doughnuts. Trying to squeeze a fat doughnut through bushing can cause run-out and a little ridge.

 

[D-4297]

The OP stated he was using a Redding "Type S" bushing die , which is a F/L bushing die ..... I had a almost similar issue awhile back , and it was driving me nuts , also . The solution to my issue was that I got casual inspecting my brass , and overlooked a very small burr on the outside edge of the neck . Some of these tiny burrs did not go all the way around the circumference , thus they were missed , and it was throwing the T.I.R. out to .003-.004 after running them through the bushing die . Doesn't take much . I also use the Type S die .

 

[Fred B.]

The OP stated he was using a Redding "Type S" bushing die , which is a F/L bushing die ... .

Redding Type S Bushing Neck Die 308 Win Mfr Part: 71155

 

[jr600yd]

this what worked for me.
1. Run fired case over a correct size mandrel this pushes any irregularities to the outside of the neck. Attempt to chamber the case. If it does then proceed with reloading. If it doesn’t then check the area where the bushing did not size the neck. It might get be brass flow from numerous firings, you will have to neck turn that small area.

2. I use Widen dies and bushings. Never had this problem and necks are sized down to the shoulder junction.

 

[kwtolman]

I am using Redding's Type S Full Length resizing die. I have inspected the fired and unfired brass. I have 5 boxes of the same lot. It all looks fine. The brass I'm struggling with has only been fired once. No doughnut, only the noticeable sharp edge on the neck where the bushing reaches the near bottom of the neck.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Has the same kind of problem with my Forster Bushing Bump die and other bushing dies for my .308. When I stopped using bushings dies, and sized without an expander ball then used an expander mandrel, have had no further neck problems (no false shoulder problems nor concentricity problems). All is good now.

 

[ahusted1978]

I had that issue when I used lapua brass too. I was turning my necks to get them consistent, and when I got the ridge, I would turn them again, basically turning out the ridge, and all was well. Needless to say, I have switched to alpha, and so far all is well.

 

[D-4297]

Redding Type S Bushing Neck Die 308 Win Mfr Part: 71155

Yup . The Redding box shows Type "S" - Bushing Style , FULL SIZING DIE . And carries the same part # 77155 .

 

[Uncle Ed]

Try flipping the bushing, one side may have more bevel without a sharp edge.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ns-how-to-find-the-optimal-neck-bushing-size/

Quick Tip: Try Flipping Your Bushings
You may also want to experiment with “flipping” your neck bushings to alternate the side that first contacts the neck of the case. (One side of the bushing is usually marked with the size, while the other side is unmarked.) So try “number side up” as well as “number side down”. Some folks believe that one side of the bushing may allow a smoother entry, and that this can enhance concentricity. Other people think they can get very slightly more or less neck tension depending on how the bushing is oriented. This is a subtle effect, but it costs nothing to experiment. If one bushing orientation proves better you can mark the “up” side with nail polish so that you can always orient the bushing optimally. NOTE: We have confirmed that some bushings are actually made with a slight taper. In addition, bushings may get distorted slightly when the brand name and size is stamped. Therefore there IS a reason to try both orientations.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Try just barely skim turning the necks and see if you remove more brass just above the neck shoulder junction.

Just a WAG but I wonder if the necks are just thicker in this area. One of the above posters said he had the same problem and it went away when he turned the necks.

 

[K22]

Last summer I had a friend who had the same problem with a 25-06 - it was very pronounced.

I too have been reloading for almost 50 years and I never saw something like that before. He also was using Redding bushing dies. I had no clue as to why this was happening and at a loss to help him since I know next to nothing about bushing dies since all I ever used is conventional full length resizing RCBS dies set to produce a .001 to .002 shoulder set back.

With nothing to lose in a manner of speaking, I suggested we try a conventional 25-06 full lenght sizing die. I helped him set the die up to set the shoulder back about .001 to .002" on the other unaffected cases. We sized about 50 cases hand lubing with Imperial sizing wax and the condition did not reappear. No sure why it work but thought I'd offer this experience.

 

[kwtolman]

Thanks for the responses. I had one box of Lapua .308 Win brass of a different lot. I loaded up 5 rounds, went to the range, popped them off and brought them home. Again out of the chamber there is less than .001" of runout. Fired neck diameter was .342". Using the .337 bushing I sized them. They came out with a neck diameter of .3355" (go figure!) but there was no ridge on the neck and the runout remained under .001". I think I have a brass problem. Anyone want to buy 3 unopened boxes of .308 brass all of the same lot? Ill sell it cheap!

 

[Ned Ludd]

@kwtolman - any way you can post an actual image of the "ridge" you're describing?

Also - are you using the expander ball that came with your die? Try removing the ball and see what happens. I do this with every Type S die I own and have never had any issues like you are describing. Also of concern is the fact you obtained a neck O.D. of 0.3355" when using a 0.337" bushing. How does the I.D.of that specific 0.337" bushing measure?

 

[243winxb]

Problem brass- What happens if only 1/2 of the neck is sized by the bushing .

 

[kwtolman]

Ned, as mentioned earlier in my post, I don't use an expander button on the depriming rod. Using my Mitutoyo inside diameter mic together with my vernier caliper, I measure the I.D. of the .337 bushing at .336". That said, I usually find the Redding bushings a bit undersized and almost always use one that is .001" larger than I want the sized neck to be. However, this one is overachieving by a bit.

As far as an image, I have taken pictures thinking that Redding might want one but it is very hard to see the ridge in the photos. It is much more obvious when you drag your fingernail across it.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Wooly]

I just loaded up 100 rounds of 308 yesterday using new Lapua brass, Redding dies (3 die comp set), and Hornady 178 ELD-X bullets. My process is to expand the necks on new brass, bump shoulders to a uniform length, neck size, prime, and load. I don't have an S Type yet for my 308 but, one is on order.

The outside neck diameter of these loaded rounds is .337". So, I use a .334" bushing to get .003" of squeeze on the neck. I also only back the bushing off about 10 thou to let the bushing float a little but still size almost all of the neck. I do this because my 308's are shot out of a custom hunting rifle. I use the same method on my competition PRS rifle which is a 6mm Creedmore. Both have to be fed from a magazine so, I need enough neck tension to hold the bullet. A .336 or .337 bushing won't do it.

How much of the neck are you sizing? I would try sizing more of he neck and using a smaller bushing. You said the brass was "once fired". Is the gun new? Bad chamber? Bad Redding die? Are you shooting hot loads? It is rare but, Lapua has been known to throw out a bad batch of brass from time to time.

308's are not known for forming doughnuts easily, especially after one firing on good brass.

Here is a 5 shot group from my Creedmore with new Lapua brass.

 

[kwtolman]

As mentioned previously in my string, the barrel is a Criterion Match Chamber 30" with about 960 rounds through it. The fired brass out of the chamber shows less than .001" of run out. The fired neck diameter is .342" which is typical for Lapua in this barrel. As also mentioned, I replaced the die and bushing with a new one of each. It made no difference to the problem. I am running the brass into the die to get .002" of shoulder bump which results in nearly all of the neck being sized. The load is 44.4 gr. of Varget with a 168 gr. Berger Hybrid bullet. Shot with the new brass it printed .305 moa at 100 yds. The muzzle velocity was where is should have been at 2819 f/s.

Also as mentioned earlier, I am very suspicious of this lot of brass...I'm wondering if it is less malleable than other lots that I have used in the past. Annealing hasn't helped. I simply can't size the neck to an acceptable diameter without incurring unacceptable run out and creating the aforementioned ridge at the bottom of the neck.

With the new lot that I opened, the .337" bushing gives me a neck at .3355" which yields .0015" neck tension. This is just right for my single feed bench gun.