308 Win. Dies... How important is it for Comp/Mic Adjustible?

[inuhbad]

Hello everybody, I'm new here and just getting into precision loading.

I'd been loading 7.5 Swiss and 223 remington for years now with H335 in a volume-metering Lyman powder measure with pretty decent results. Theshop owner really loved seeing the accuracy I could squeeze out of my K-31 Swiss out to 200 yards with 180gn SMK's and a basic Full-Length 2-Die RCBS set. I load with an RCBS Rock Chucker II single stage.

Then, this past December, when my father and I picked up a Savage 10 FCP-K in 308 Winchester, we had to special order it, as not many places had this model of 308 with the muzzle brake. When it arrived, the shop owner was REALLY impressed with the quality of rifle, especially for the price point! So, when I picked it up he threw in a set of Full-Length RCBS 2-die 308 set for free, and asked me to bring in some targets to show how accurate it was!

I quickly learned that my handloads were not as accurate as the Federal GMM 308. I was getting maybe 0.75 MOA with my first attempt loading Varget (hand trickled charge w/ Dillon balance beam scale). Before this, I only shot H335, which turned out to only be good for plinking ammo in 223/7.62x39 or cast bullets in 7.5 Swiss.

This first batch of Varget 308 loads (42gn) was pretty good, (OAL ~2.805") but STILL nothing as nice as the Gold Medal Match. That shot one ragged hole.

I'm curious, I only have the F-L die set, which was free...

How much improvement in my loads would I get if I upgrade to a 308Win RCBS Competition die set? Is it really worth the $120???

Should I be full-length sizing my brass after every firing?

Prior to loading, I trimmed, deburred, & chamfered the case necks to the 'Trim-To' size (don't recall off the top of my head), and I was wondering...
Should I trim the brass after every firing, or should I let it 'grow' a 0.00X" before I re-trim the whole batch?

Since I'm new to PRECISION hand loading, what would you suggest I read as the #1, absolute BEST book resource on precision handloading???

Thus far I've read:
Speer #13
Lyman Reloading Manual (Latest one)
Sierra Reloading Binder
and numerous Hodgdon's Annual 'Reloading Manual' magazines.

None of which have as much 'Precision' loading information as the collective members' knowledge on this forum.

What do you guys suggest I do to quickly get better groups from Varget, CCI BR2? primers, Sierra 168gn MatchKings, and this Savage 10 FCP-K?

I suspect I need to adjust the cartridge OAL for better engagement with the lands/rifling. Any suggestions on an OAL to start? I don't have a specific tool to determine the OAL best for my rifle.

Thanks again for all the replies & great information on this site!!!

-inuhbad
Edited because I can't spell today...

 

[earl39]

my first and probably best suggestion would be ask German Salazar what he would recommend you read. you can find him on here at some point most days.

 

[GermanS1]

Earl, thanks for the recommendation. I've been working on a series of "Basics" articles which are more along the lines of "basics of precision loading" than pure basic loading, so they might be useful. Look in the index to my site: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/p/articles-index.html

They should help and they're free!

For other information, the wealth of knowledge from so many good shooters on this forum is definitely a good place, as long as the question is phrased broadly enough to allow for a range of answers.

For the rifle in question, I would suggest trying H4895 more than Varget, but that isn't going to be an earth shaking change. I wouldn't replace the basic RCBS dies unless they show bad runout after being properly set up and checked with good brass. Seating depth changes should show some improvement at this point, see what the barrel/bullet combination wants, but usually, seating a 168 about 0.020" off the lands (jumping) is a good starting point.

Perhaps most important in an assessment of a rifle's accuracy is knowing your own skill and being able to understand what shots are out of the norm because of shot execution problems and which ones are truly indicative of the rifle's performance. That takes time with the rifle, but there's nothing wrong with more shooting!

 

[Spanners]

I load my 308 on a Dillon 550.
WOuld be prob LESS accurate than a single stage and deff less on powder.

My 308 shoots 0.25" 3 shot groups all day

42gr Varget w/ 168SMK is the PMC match load - shoots good and is slow.

My load is 44.5gr Varget with 168gr

Work your load up a bit and it will shoot

 

[Kenny474]

A good investment is a stoney point/hornady OAL gauge, that will let you figure out where the rifling starts so you can know how far from the lands your bullets are and adjust accordingly.

Also, a bushing neck die will allow you to only size the neck of the case while leaving the body fireformed to your chamber, and also swap different size bushings to adjust neck tension. It's not to say you can't load good ammo with your RCBS dies, but you may be able to improve it after you have everything else dialed in by adjusting neck tension and using formed brass.

You also don't mention what brand of brass you are using or if you are weight sorting into batches. Lapua is probably the best and most consistent brass out of the box, though Winchester is also good brass if you are willing to put in the prep time to make it consistent. I am not a fan of Federal brass, I find it far softer than most other brands and primer pockets seem to loosen up after a few loadings.

Read the info in this link: http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html
It should be very helpful, and you may even find a good load recipe as well. I agree with German and like H4895 in the .308 more than Varget, so you may want to give that a shot at some point as well. I think H4895 is about ideal in the .308, though some like Varget as well.

Even experimenting with different bullets and bullet weights can improve things dramatically. Some barrels will just never shoot certain bullets.

Try a simple ladder test where you load several sets of 5 cartridges, starting at a known safe level, and increase the charge by .5 grain for each set. For example, load 5 rounds with a 168gr SMK and 41gr of H4895, and increase by .5 grains for each load until 43.5gr(MAX LOAD, watch for pressure and maybe use .25gr increments from 43gr on up) When you get to the smallest group you can start fine tuning from there.

And whatever German recommends, it's a good idea to try it. He really knows his stuff. I improved my 30-06 accuracy just by following a few tips in his articles.

I have a Steven's .308 with the same rifling twist as your gun, and I have found 42.3gr (MAX load is 42.5) of H4895 with a 180gr Nosler BT jammed .010 with .001 neck tension to produce .75" groups, which is the best yet from this rifle. You have a superior rifle, so it should produce better groups if it likes that load.

My gun prefers heavier bullets with it's 1-10 twist, so you may want to try some 180gr bullets.

 

[BoydAllen]

My first CF rifle was a .308. Were I to revisit the caliber, with a Savage like yours (given that it, like my old 788, has a 10" twist ) I would use my Stoney Point tools (The one that measures where a given bullet touches the rifling, the one that measures shoulder bump, and the one that is used to measure the length of a loaded round from the bullet's ogive to the case head) as well as a Forster Ultra seating die (assuming that I was on a budget and did not want to purchase an arbor press), and one of the bushing FL dies, either a Redding type S, or one of the new ones that RCBS has come out with. I would definitely pick up some Lapua brass, and I would probably try some Federal 210 primers, and some of the new Russian LR primers, that some of the over the course shooters have come to favor.

You are fortunate that German likes to write. I suggest that you read all of his articles. I think that you will enjoy them, and be well informed.

As to the Competition seater, Precision Shooting Magazine has a reloading guide in which a comparison was made between the results obtained with different seating dies. If I remember correctly, the Competition seater fared worse than the one that you are currently using. I would conform that but I seem to have lent the book and not gotten it back. (When will I learn?)

Shooting a .308, with heavy bulets, from the bench, presents its own set of challenges. I would suggest that you not be afraid to try new ways to address the rifle, and rest it. It is easy to have a subtle reaction to the sound of a muzzle brake and the general commotion of the rifle discharging slightly enlarge one's groups. The heavier the recoil, and trigger pull, and louder the sound, the more attention needs to be paid to trigger squeeze and follow through. Keep us posted as to your results. Also, point some sticks and tie some surveyors tape to the other ends, and put them in the ground, evenly spaced, between you and the target. You might just learn something, and shoot smaller groups.

 

[TonyR]

I have the Forster Micrometer Seater in a couple of cartridges including the 308 Win and it will give excellent concentricity if the brass is resized concentric. Very attractive price compared to other alternatives and seems to work just as well in my experience.

 

[inuhbad]

Wow!!! This is some EXCELLENT advice!!!

This Saturday I checked this thread with my cell phone, and loaded up 50 more rounds to try this weekend with my Dad!

With the different powder load (tried 44 Grains Varget), and attention to sizing uniformity, and seating depth control, I got them seated to 2.800", and we tested out this new load ASAP!

Thanks for the great advice & website, German! I've got it bookmarked for a lot of future reading!

I've been reloading almost exclusively Federal GMM 308 Brass since I have a decent source to get it for free!

I haven't tried weighing the cases out yet, and sorting them into batches. I'll definitely start doing that though!

I'm amazed at how time-consuming this Precision loading can be! It took me about 5.5 hours to size, trim, & prepare 50rds of brass (chamfer, deburr, brush out case neck & primer pocket, etc.), and then carefully set my dies, charge them with hand trickled Varget, and then seat the bullets! 50 rounds in 5.5 hours! That's a LONG TIME!

I'm more used to loading up 100rds of 45 ACP in an hour, 50rds of 223 in an hour, or 50 shotgun slugs in an hour... 5.5 Hours for 50 rounds of 308 is immensely time consuming! I can now see why my friend was telling me that Precision Reloading is the perfect hobby for those with an Obsessive - Compulsive Disorder and are pretty obsessed with perfection!

This is GREAT!

Thank you all for the recipe information! I'll also have to read up a lot more before I go making any notable purchases in the future. I like the idea of just neck-sizing, and using bushings for proper tension, but I still don't fully understand the processes & reasoning behind it quite yet. I'll get there someday though!

Thanks again for the great advice & information! I'll start playing with the seating depth soon, but I'll have to test the rifle a bit more then.

I guess the dies I've already got aren't that bad. I mean, I CAN seat my bullets to within 0.001" of my intended OAL! I just need to be careful, measure things out precisely, and take my time I guess!

Thanks for the great information! My Dad thanks you guys too - the groups shrank from 0.75" to about 0.55" for our best group of the day! Also forgot to mention, my dad didn't like the idea of memorizing ballistics tables & such, so we put on a Shepherd 3-10x42mm Scope with a compensating reticle. Seems to work GREAT!

I've got a lot of reading to do now!

My goal is to come back on here and post a photo of a single ragged hole with my 308 handloads @ 100 yards!

Sincerely Thankful,

-inuhbad

 

[Kenny474]

Remember not to measure OAL off the tip of the bullet. They can be slightly deformed and give you inconsistent readings. Use a Hornady OAL gauge for your calipers, or even the seating stem from your dies to check for consistent seating depth. They measure off the ogive which is more consistent than the tip.

Good luck, glad to hear you're doing well.
Kenny

 

[GermanS1]

Glad to hear it's going well, a bit of practice will bring a bit more speed. I can go from fired brass to 70 loaded rounds in about 2 hours. Clean necks, lube, size, wipe off the lube, clean primer pockets, trim, prime, trickle powder, point bullets, seat bullets. Organization, focus and practice all help, but speed is secondary, perfection is primary!