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.308 win brass

But thats the point I might as well be shooting my 155s at 3000 fps no stress at all. Nearly the same as a 2640 fps 200.20x thats why there are guys on the line pushing them hard to get that 10% more.

In some sports drugs are used to gain an advantage in other they may break your legs. Shooting is not immune to people wanting to win when it comes to world titles and even less. Just saying

There were bullets blowing up in Canada any idea how fast they were going?
 
As I stated, to each their own. IMO - doing something to gain a clear and quantifiable advantage is one thing. However, killing your brass in two firings for an improvement in wind deflection that is only a small fraction of the normal group size in a dead calm and is virtually impossible to statistically quantify is another.

Blowing up bullets is an even more extreme example of the same mindset...it's an instant "0/10" on the scorecard and will usually put you completely out of the running. For what? Jacket failure is possibly the worst thing that can happen to a shooter in a match. IMO - it's even worse than a crossfire, because the shooter may not have done anything wrong behind the gun (i.e. wind call, jerk the trigger, etc.), but they still end up with a zero.

FWIW - a 155 at 3000 fps is not even remotely close to the wind deflection with a 200.20X at 2640 fps, not even in the same ball park. As a matter of fact, I shot in a 600 yd match last Saturday and was squadded next to a good friend that was using 155s @ 3000 fps. In the first two matches with moderate wind conditions, he shot two excellent scores of 198-11X and 198-6X. My 200.20X load in the first two matches was good for 200-14X and 200-10X. However, when the wind picked up substantially in the third match, the 155s got blown all over the place and he ended up with a 187-2X. I shot a 198-10X with the 200s. That big high BC 200 gr boolit just doesn't get deflected like a much faster but lighter bullet, which is the whole point of my argument. The difference is only greater at 1000 yd. A 50 or 75 fps increase in velocity with a given bullet is really only good for a very minor improvement in wind deflection, at best. It takes a pretty large increase in velocity with a given bullet before the effect becomes significant. In contrast, it doesn't take much of an increase in BC at all to create a noticeable effect. In fact, you will find very few examples where you can push a lighter bullet with a lower BC fast enough to overcome the advantage in wind deflection of a heavier weight class bullet with a much higher BC (same caliber), without having to push the lighter bullet at ridiculously high pressures. Velocity rarely trumps BC.

In any event, I totally get where that mindset comes from, and I admit to having done similar things myself in the past. What I learned from the experience is that things that may seem like they might provide a very slight advantage, often don't, and they almost always cost a lot of money. If some approach seems like it might provide a "real" advantage, it is usually not too difficult to do a little analysis up front so you can make an educated guess whether any benefit can actually be quantified and/or supported by statistical analysis before actually trying it. If the answer comes back that even if some approach may actually work, the benefit is likely to be so small as to be nearly impossible to prove statistically significant, then the next step is is to determine whether there are any potential negatives associated with trying it out. If there is no obvious downside, it may still be worth giving something a go, even if the potential gain is quite small. Even one point or one "X" can decide who wins a match - I get that. However, there are clear downsides to pushing loads so hard that the brass is good for only two firings, or that risk bullet/jacket failure. Been there, done that, and it's just not worth it, IMO. This sport and everything we put into it is just too costly to risk those types of problems in a match. Nonetheless, I appreciate the fact there will always be those willing to push to the edge of the envelope for a perceived gain, no matter how large. As I mentioned, to each their own.
 
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@Ned Ludd well written it was like word for word my feeling that come out og my head. Only thing like you say I try to look at things scientifically and I didnt see a big wind deflection difference at 600. For us the X is about 70mm so a 10% difference or even less can be quite a game changer. could you please give me your take on the windage difference between the bullets at say the 155 Berger Hybrid and either or of the 200's.

Not trying to be argumentative here please don't take me the wrong way just looking at how oher people view things.
 
David - I use JBM Ballistics, which is an online calculator, but almost any ballistic calculator will give similar, if not exact, outputs. According to JBM, a 155 Hybrid (G7 BC = 0.245) launched at 3000 fps would experience wind deflection of approximately 3.8 and 7.4 MOA in a full value 10 mph wind at 600 and 1000 yd, respectively. A 200.20X (G7 BC = 0.328) launched at 2650 fps has a predicted wind deflection at those distances of approximately 3.3 and 6.1 MOA. If you increase the velocity of the 200.20X to 2725 fps, the predicted wind deflection shows a small decrease to values of 3.1 and 5.8 MOA at 600 and 1000 yd, or ~0.2 and 0.3 MOA less than the bullet launched at 2650 fps.

We typically use the wind deflection values for a full-value 10 mph wind as a standard for discussion and comparative purposes. However, even inexperienced shooters can usually make a wind call to much finer increment than 10 mph. So someone with good wind reading skills can probably make a wind call to 2 to 3 mph, whereas a mediocre wind call might be within 5 mph accuracy. Using those values, the realistic differences in predicted wind deflection values between the two 200.20X loads at 2650 and 2725 fps are tiny, less than 0.1 MOA and ~0.1 MOA at 600 and 1000 yd, respectively. Those differences are so small it would be very difficult to ever state with any certainty that the extra velocity (and therefore increased resistance to wind deflection) had any effect on scores. A difference that small could easily be due to slightly better precision of the load itself, or merely the innate group dispersion at a given distance, which is probably about 5-10 times larger than the difference in wind deflection of the two loads.

In contrast, you can see that the much higher BC of the 200.20X bullet produces significantly smaller predicted wind deflection than the 155s, even though they enjoy a 350 fps velocity advantage in this scenario. As I mentioned previously, it is rare to find a situation where velocity will ever trump BC. More often than not, pushing the lighter bullet with lower BC fast enough to overcome any BC deficit will push a load to pressures that will kill the brass primer pockets prematurely, or might even be unsafe.

Obviously, there are many additional important considerations that go into the equation. As you noted, targets with the smaller X-ring will require a load with excellent precision, as well as good wind reading skills, in order to obtain good scores with high X-counts. So maybe for a load I would use with that target setup, I would try to scratch out that last little bit of precision that I could. To that end, choice of bullet/powder, velocity, primers, just about everything becomes important.

It's also important to note that not all "accuracy nodes" are equal. Some are simply better than others, and those are the ones we typically try to hit with a given barrel length/bullet/powder combination. Sometimes, a slightly slower velocity node can give better precision, at the expense of a small amount of wind deflection. At shorter distances (300 to 600 yd), the slower velocity usually has less of an effect and the enhanced precision more than offsets it. Sometimes, the next higher node is the clear winner in terms of both precision and wind deflection. However, that sometimes comes at the cost of increased recoil and gun handling issues, as well as reduced brass life.

So, the bottom line is that none of this reloading stuff is written in stone. There is usually a choice of different approaches that can all work, each with its own unique considerations and caveats. It is up to the individual to choose the approach that suits them best. I have found over the years that I personally am much better off practicing regularly and trying to improve my wind reading skills, than trying to get a little more juice by pushing a load much harder. It all comes down to your past experience and shooting philosophy, there really is no "right" or "wrong" about it.
 
@David101 , When I began shooting TR , I started out using 168gr SMK's . Then ; as I advanced along the knowledge path , I went to 175gr bullets , then 185gr Juggernauts , and upon reaching a higher state of enlightenment , through sound advice , and counselling from advanced shooters , I finally arrived to where I am today . Sending Berger 200 Hybrids & 200.20x's to the target , and now shooting consistently in the mid-190's with moderate X-count . A 20+ point increase in just a year and a half . I reduced my charges , thus reducing velocity to the lower node , and went to the heavier bullets . What these actual "experts" are trying to impart to you is slower , heavier bullets will be more accurate over the string , than supersonic light weight B.B's. because of lower deflection , regardless of their speed .
Shoot your supersonic 155's at Raton , or Ben Avery , or Camp Perry on a "breezy" day , and I'll go with my 200 Hybrids . Be happy to compare scores for the wager of a cool beverage . Best way I can explain it .
 
As I mentioned, there are typically a number of approaches that can all be made to work acceptably, with enough time and effort. However, I learned the hard way shooting 90 VLDs at ~2850 fps with H4895 (a "high" node) that only getting two or three firings out of my Lapua brass was expensive. I try not to do that any more ;).
 
Shooting FTR with custom target actions SAAMI just doesnt apply leave it at home. A lot of people are pushing close to 2900 or above for 185 and for 200s to be of any use they have to be moving greater than 2700.

Lapua Palma brass is nearly exclusively used and even then its one perhaps two shots and its all over. Thats the price that we have put on winning at FTR. I think it is a good reason to put a bullet weight limit on the class weather its 155 or 168's .

At a local level a lot of shooters back right off this sort of load and will shoot the 155s perhaps even have a different barrel for them. Competing really drains the pocket and pushes all the limits even those of safety.

While I agree that some folks are running the speeds you listed in the first paragragh (I ran X bullet at 2720 for a while), I honestly don't think it's necessary to compete at a high level. The majority of national level FTR shooters I know and shoot with run the 200s anywhere from 2620 ish to 2660 ish (X bullet) and some are running the 200 hybrid a bit faster depending on powder etc.
 
@Ned Ludd interesting I use JBM as well an excellent program. I only put the numbers in very quickly the other night but I thought the 200s didnt give me such a difference in the wind. I always use a 10mph 90 cross wind for comparisions.

Off to a Long Range comp now so will investigate the results probably tomorrow.
 

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