.308 win brass

[Nature Boy]

I’m currently using Lapua for F/TR with 43.5g of H4895 pushing 185 hybrids.

I’m only getting 5-6 reloads before pockets get loose and case head expands.

I would have switched over to palma brass but I’m sitting on a stockpile of 210M primers I’m trying to use up.

About ready to order more brass and I’m on the fence whether to switch to palma brass or look at other brands that might have a bit more longevity so I can use these LR primers up.

 

[BronzeArcher]

That's a warm load. I don't think anything other than the Lapua Palma brass is going to extend case life for you. Another option might be to find the same node with Varget or a double base powder of appropriate burn rate. But you'll have more temperature sensitivity with a double base powder so it would need to be a "wide" node.

 

[rammac]

As stated, that's a hot load, it's over SAAMI max so the cases will be pushed to beyond their design parameters and the pockets will expand pretty quickly. Lapua has pretty good case volume so if you change cases you need compare their volumes, you'll push your loads even hotter with a smaller volume case.

 

[OKBoomer]

I’m in a similar situation of pressing a little harder on heavy projectiles for FTR. I have maybe one more load cycle on some federal brass before the pockets are too loose. I plan to change to ADG brass since their case web is strong and quality is excellent. Though, I’ll have to decrease my charge weight to account for internal volume reduction. There are several good reviews on this site, plus it’s American made. https://atlasdg.com/

 

[Marksman63]

“Hot load” is too generic. It depends on your COAL

 

[Nature Boy]

I’m in a similar situation of pressing a little harder on heavy projectiles for FTR.

That’s life in the fast lane when it comes to competition loads. How long would Lapua LR brass last with 200-20x Berger’s at the loads people run them? One and done?

 

[Nature Boy]

“Hot load” is too generic. It depends on your COAL

Agreed. Generic and relative.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I have run both Juggernauts and 185 Hybrids from Lapua Std. Brass with H4895 in rifles chambered with .085" and 0.180", respectively. According to QuickLoad, pressures were predicted to be slightly over 61K psi with Juggernauts in the shorter fb chamber at ~2750 fps, and 185 Hybrids in the longer fb chamber at ~2770 fps (both 30" barrels).

In my hands, Lapua Standard brass is only good for about 4-6 firings with Lapua Std brass before the primer pockets open up when firing loads with predicted [QL] pressures over about 60-61K psi, with SAAMI max being listed at 62K psi. In contrast, Lapua Palma (SRP) brass should take those pressures for quite a few more firings than that (10 or more). The extra metal in the casehead surrounding the SRP pocket in Palma brass provides markedly more mechanical strength.

Alternatively, comparable loads with Varget in the Lapua Std LRP brass tuned in at about 2725 and 2745 fps, respectively, and QL pressure estimates were ~57.5 to 59K psi. Even though the predicted pressure with Varget was only about 2K psi lower, it made a big difference and brass life improved to 7-8 firings. So switching to Varget might be one option that will allow you to effectively use up your 210Ms before the brass gives up. Eventually, I'd recommend switching over to Palma brass - there's just no real good reason not to make the change. You will need to re-work your loads with the SRPs and Palma brass, but you'd probably do most of the same workup with a new Lot of Std brass, anyhow.

 

[D-4297]

Friend of mine is currently shooting the 200gr Hybrid Target out of a Savage F-TR , 30" Criterion with 42gr of 4895 at avg. 2630-2650 . Right on the edge of his high node for that bullet . And my own comp load for 185 Hybrid is 43gr of Varget out of a 30" Brux . And I'm running it on the low node at about 2610 - 2630 fps. Eight or nine loads on these cases with no adverse signs ...yet .
43.5 of H-4895 could be a bit warm , even in a longer chamber / seating . I'd suggest dropping it to around 42.0 and coming up from there .

 

[rammac]

A hot load for me is based on standard SAAMI specs so yes, if you are using a long overall length then you will get lower pressures, but assuming standard COAL and standard case volume (based on my Lapua brass measurements for a .308) the load is over SAAMI max. It's obvious that there are many variables that might push the load higher or lower than SAAMI max but since the primer pockets are opening up so quickly I'd say that it's a pretty good bet that the OP's load is hot.

 

[Nature Boy]

A hot load for me is based on standard SAAMI specs

My chamber isn’t SAAMI specs and most people shooting F Class aren’t loading to SAAMI specs

 

[Nature Boy]

I'd recommend switching over to Palma brass - there's just no real good reason not to make the change

Thanks Ned, I’ll do that. Might find someone who needs federal 210M primers since they are rarer than hen’s teeth

 

[Zero333]

The only large primer 308win. brass I can get the pockets to last almost forever is Winchester brass.
I have a batch of 299 pieces that been loaded more than 2 dozen times. Used to be a batch of 300 but around the 24th loading one of them split a neck.
I annealed them every 6 to 7 loadings.

Lapua LR brass started loosening the pockets after 5 reloads.

I'm gonna retire the Winchester brass soon and get some Lapua Palma.

 

[badmitn88]

If you are going to go to the small primer .308 brass you might want to check out Peterson too. I've been having great success with it. If you buy 500 at a time it's way cheaper than Lapua, and the quality is the same.

 

[Ned Ludd]

FWIW - as badmitn88 noted, there are other sources of very high quality SRP .308 Win brass in addition to Lapua. Peterson is one, Alpha Munitions is another. With any of these options, there can and will be some subtle differences, such as flash-hole diameter, internal volume, etc. None are likely to be just a "drop and go" transition from a different brand of LRP brass; at a minimum, some load tweaking will have to be done in whatever new brass you choose, more likely a complete reworking of the load from the ground up. Nonetheless, the SRP .308 Win brass is a pretty good option and many F-TR shooters have already made the switch.

 

[Nature Boy]

some load tweaking will have to be done in whatever new brass you choose, more likely a complete reworking of the load from the ground up.

That’s exactly what I would do. Complete load work up

 

[David101]

Shooting FTR with custom target actions SAAMI just doesnt apply leave it at home. A lot of people are pushing close to 2900 or above for 185 and for 200s to be of any use they have to be moving greater than 2700.

Lapua Palma brass is nearly exclusively used and even then its one perhaps two shots and its all over. Thats the price that we have put on winning at FTR. I think it is a good reason to put a bullet weight limit on the class weather its 155 or 168's .

At a local level a lot of shooters back right off this sort of load and will shoot the 155s perhaps even have a different barrel for them. Competing really drains the pocket and pushes all the limits even those of safety.

 

[mike mccormick]

I have been using Starline srp brass with very good results . 2724 fps from a 200gr bullet and the pockets are still good after 6 loadings

 

[Ned Ludd]

Shooting FTR with custom target actions SAAMI just doesnt apply leave it at home. A lot of people are pushing close to 2900 or above for 185 and for 200s to be of any use they have to be moving greater than 2700.

Lapua Palma brass is nearly exclusively used and even then its one perhaps two shots and its all over. Thats the price that we have put on winning at FTR. I think it is a good reason to put a bullet weight limit on the class weather its 155 or 168's .

At a local level a lot of shooters back right off this sort of load and will shoot the 155s perhaps even have a different barrel for them. Competing really drains the pocket and pushes all the limits even those of safety.

To each their own, but those are pretty hot loads and are absolutely NOT necessary to win in F-TR. I don't personally know a single person running 185s at 2900 fps, and only a few that run 200s over 2700 fps. Sure, you can do it, the Palma brass will take the pressure, but probably for a lesser number of firings than it will last with a slightly lower pressure load. Is it going to wreck a custom action? No. Is it as hot as a proof load, which might run well over 70K psi? No. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea, or necessary to win. Both those loads you described are predicted by QuickLoad to be in the 65K+ psi range, which is at least 3000 psi over SAAMI MAX.

A majority of F-TR shooters in the U.S. are running the 200s somewhere between about 2640 and 2660 fps with Varget or N140 from a ~29" to 31" barrel. It is a very well-known accuracy node and predicted pressures run in the 60-61K psi range, well under SAAMI MAX. To hit the center of the next higher node with a similar setup, you really need to be running the 200s at around 2725 fps. So what kind of a difference in ballistics does a 75 fps velocity difference create? Less than one inch in a full value 10 mph wind at 600 yd and less than three inches at 1000 yd. If you consider that an accomplished wind reader can likely detect as low as a 3 mph difference (or better) in wind speed across the range, now you're down to a difference of approximately one bullet diameter at 600 yd, and less than one inch at 1000 yd. No F-TR load can hold that level of precision, not even close. In other words, the little bit of wind advantage obtained from running those juiced up loads is not the limiting source of error in scoring, as it's far smaller than typical group spread of a well-tuned load fired under dead-calm conditions. If your average group spread under calm conditions is far larger than some theoretical advantage in wind deflection, what's the purpose? What shooting loads like that does buy you is a lot more felt recoil and potential issues with gun handling, as well as reduced brass life, all in return for a microscopic difference in windage that you can never realistically shoot.

 

[Nature Boy]

For reference, my 185 hybrid load with 43.5 of H4895 averages 2,724 fps