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308 Question

Machismo

I have read all day on here and now have a question.

When I was in the Marine Corps my best friend was a Scout Sniper. He said that they used 175 grain Sierra Match Kings because they have more Oomph at 1k yards. I just picked up a re loader so I can try my hand at long range shooting.

My question is, after I have read on here it seems that people prefer 155 grain SMK or the 190 for the 308 out to 1000 yards. If these are a better bullet why does the Marine Corps use the 175 grain?

Will the 175s get the job done, or will they run out of gas around there? I am shooting a Remington 700 long action with a 26 inch 1 in 12.
 
The 175's have been around a long time, and just recently, new bullets are on the market for our 308's.

The 185 Bergers seem to be getting a lot of attention recently!

Ck this site out, might can answer a lot of your questions, It answered about 1,000 of mine!

185 BT Long Range Berger, recommended, I shot it, it's an awesome accurate bullet if you do your part! Most 308 bullets run out of gas at 900 yards, FYI, but you should find the info your interested in on this website!

www.riflemansjournal.com
 
This site is a gold mine of information I have made it through around 20 pages so far. Just thought I would ask the question as to see what bullets I should start to buy.
 
Your Remmy should get the job done. I shot 190's and have for a long time in my 12 twist.

I just built a new 308 with a 10 twist, 28" heavy barrel. It likes 190's and loves the 185 BT lr's!

German Salazar moly's his bullets, states it improves groups @ 1k yds, the 185's! I believe he stated he shots a 11 twist barrel!
 
From what I understand, the 175 SMK is popular in the 308 because it performs well in the transonic zone and may even pass through the sound barrier as it slows without becoming unstable. You can find discusions of this subject by seaqrching either here or on the Long Range forum under the topic "transonic stability" You can use an exterior ballistics program to find the terminal velocity at the target for any bullet fired from your rifle if you have a BC for the bullet and a muzzle velocity for the load. Stability can become an issue as the bullet approaches 1100 fps depending on the design. Some shooters choose to shoot some of the 155 class bullets at higher muzzle velocities while others are using higher BC bullets up to 230 grains at lower muzzle velocities to stay above the transonic zone out to 1000 yards. You would probably need to stay with bullets from 185 grains and below with your 1:12. The Berger 185 grain LR HP BT has been an excellent bullet in my 1:12 barrel and it should be above the speed of sound at 1000 yards from a 26 inch barrel.
 
OK. So the reason it is used by the military because it doesn't become as unstable during the transonic zone correct?
 
Machismo,

The 175 SMK will stay supersonic all the way out to 1000 yds, so long as it's driven at an initial velocity equal to (or better than) that of the LC M118LR ammo; 2,580 @ 78 ft. This loading was originally developed by Lake City in response to a USMC request to combine the accuracy of the M852 (LC loaded version of the old "Mexican Match" load with the 168 SMK) with the ballistic properties of the M118 173 grain FMJBT that was then used for sniper applications. The weight limit we were given in developing the bullet was a maximum of 175 grains, in deference to the fact that these were being used in gas guns (the M21 is still in service at that time) as well as the (then) new M24 and Marine Corps M40 bolt guns. Had it been developed strictly for the bolt guns alone, I suspect they would have stepped up to the 190s, as that was the bullet that was being sued for most 1000 yard competitive shooting in 308s. The 155 grain bullets are something of a special case, and have some cautions that need to go with them. Yes, they do stay supersonic at 1000 yards, but only when driven at an initial muzzle velocity of 2,950 or so. Most Palma guns are built with 28"-30" barrels to achieve this, and the loads are still plenty warm. Out of a shorter (24" or so) barrel, they will not normally remain supersonic at that range. They are required, by regulation, for international Palma competition. It's not that it's the ideal or even best weight for a 1000 yard bullet, it's just that this was what the rules require us to use. Most manufacturers who produce competitive bullets (Berger, Sierra, Lapua) have developed specialized bullets tailored to this type of match. They generally have a very short bearing surface, which intorduces some other potential problems. Again, not an issue for a gun that's built specifically for these bullets, but may well be in guns that are set up for more "general" shooting.

Nothing really cut and dried here, but knowing a bit of the history behind how and why these bullets were developed will help you make a more informed decision when you start to reload. Besides, some of that history's pretty interesting.
 
Thanks guys for all the info.

Kevin, Thanks for the history. I like to know how things came about as well. I worked for a guy who was on the Marine Corps R&D board when we got the 1014 shotgun and the M32 6 shot grenade launcher.

Little fun fact, the designer of the shotgun was called when they realized that it didn't have a name as of yet. He looked at the clock on the wall and, yupp, it was 10:14 a.m.

At the time Major (now LtCol) Mike Manning was on the team that did the field trials of the M-32 grenade launcher, and when it was accepted its military designation was 32. Mike Manning's first command was in 3rd Battalion 2nd Marines. Again, little fun facts.
 
Machismo,

Funny how those things come to be. Another little known fact; the Glock 17 is usually cited as being so named because its magazine held 17 rounds of 9mm. Not so. It was simply Gaston Glock's 17th item to be patented.

Now for a really funny story, find out how Dillon came to name their largest brass tumbler the FL-2000!
 
The 175 Sierra Match King replaced the 172-173-174 (?) gr "match". maybe even the 168 SMK It is loaded so it can work in M14, M24 & M25. yes there are other projectiles that will do better ... 185 Lapua comes to mind, but there is a cost issue. Depending on the discpline you shoot will dictate which projectile you shoot. Since I shoot LR (600 > 1K yds) I use either 178 AMAX or 185 Lapua, mainly due to the fact that I have so many. Not enough but quite a few. I like the 155 at short range but when I'm in a hurry it would really suck to use the wrong magazine of loads at the wrong range !!! BTDT, got the big fat ZERO score !!!
HTH
 
Macho, Kevin gave a great synopsis of the various bullets (of course, if you know him you know he's the bullet man). As he said, 175 is really the low end for good general purpose long-range bullets. I'd encourage you to try the 185 Lapua Scenar, 185 Lapua D46, 185 Berger LRBT and the 190 Sierra. Loads will not interchange among them, they are significantly different so don't just change bullets over a single load.

Welcome to the forum.
 
I am surprised you didn't mention the Berger Target 190 VLD's ?

I won several matches with the above in a 12 twist 308, 600yds, FYI, but as stated, all guns will have their own load!

I have tried all the above "except" the 185 Scenar's! I am going to find a few of them and load em up!
 
German,

I have read a lot on the 185 Berger LRBT I may get a few of those and some 190 SMK and find some loads for them, and try my hand. I am normally a 600 yard shooter but, for one reason on another I have been bitten by the 1000 yard bug.

I do not plan to go nuts on the rifle. I like the simplicity of the 700 and its history. Would I like to compete, yes. Will I win, who knows doubtfully, but, with some luck and from some leaning on you guys I may be able to hopefully punch the X at a distance that most would giggle at.

Thanks for you ideas!

Best Regards,
Kyle
 
Dennis, I didn't mention the Berger 190 VLD because it's about the same price as the 185 LRBT and its longer bearing surface holds down the MV a bit in the .308. The VLD is a great bullet and I use it in the .30-06 but have switched for the .308 which was the subject of Kyle's original inquiry.
 
German, again, Thank your for the reply!

You have definetly change my thoughts, processes, and most of all, my match scores!

When you have something that works, it's hard to change. The only reason I started testing again is my new 308 build is a 10 twist! I shot a 12 twist for almost two years!

Your input and information has helped me produce a tack driver with my 10 twist.! THANKS

Now, if I can get Berger to reduce the $$$$ on the LRbt 185's, I will stock up!
 
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