.308 precision loads

[Loudcherokee]

Hi folks,

So getting back into reloading after a long hiatus. In the past for my .308, I would use once fired factory brass from factory ammo that I purchased and shot in my gun. I would neck size with the Lee collet die, then seat with a Forster benchrest micrometer seater. Once the bolt got sticky, I would bump the shoulders back with the Lee full length sizing die. I've never annealed. This allowed me to shoot sub .5 moa out to 100 yards, but I never got a chance to get past 300 yards at the club I was a member at.

My rifle is a Savage 10FLP that I swapped into a Bell and Carlson Medalist stock, free floated the barrel, and completely bedded the action to the stock.

This time around, I want to take a different approach. The local club has a 1000 yard range, and I'd really like to get into some competition shooting, be it PRS, F-Class, or whatever. I know my hand loads have got to be on point for this. I'm looking into some new stuff that I'm kind of confused about.

Firstly, I would like to start with brand new Lapua brass, and fire form it to my chamber. Not 100% sure on which way I should do this. Cream of wheat, some match monster 175s from Midsouth since they are only $5 for 20, or another method. I plan to load with 175g Sierra Match Kings, and I also might try their Tipped Match Kings.

I plan to neck size only, and get both a Lee Decapper die and a Redding Body die to bump the shoulders .002 when I need to.

After fire forming, this is where I get lost with resizing.

I'm looking at Reddings Competiton bushing neck sizer. I understand I will need to measure the neck diameter of a loaded round and then subtract .002 to get the size of bushing I need to maintain .002 neck tension. Is this correct?

I also want to turn the necks. I'm dying up Hornadys neck Turner. At what point should I turn the necks on the lapua brass? Before fire forming, or after? I also want to get Hornadys concentricity gauge to check for run out on my loaded rounds.

The confusing part of neck sizing to me is the Sinclair expanding mandrel die. I understand this will help with uniform neck sizing on the inside of the necks, and also with neck tension, but the part that confuses me is how do I use the sinclair expander in conjunction with the redding bushing sizer? Which one should I use first? Would I use both every time? Would using either require the necks to be turned again?

LC

 

[JFrank]

I can help with part of your question others perhaps will chime in for the rest.
I only use a mandrel on virgin bras to ensure the neck ID is round and expanded to .001 under bullet diameter, you can fire form multiple ways but avoid breakfast cereal in your new rifle. I use a known modest charge and a cheap bullet for a large quantity of brass.
Preparing for a custom die is slightly different.
Hope that helps a bit

 

[Martin52]

Hi folks,

......Firstly, I would like to start with brand new Lapua brass, and fire form it to my chamber. Not 100% sure on which way I should do this.

I plan to neck size only, and get both a Lee Decapper die and a Redding Body die to bump the shoulders .002 when I need to.

After fire forming, this is where I get lost with resizing.

I'm looking at Reddings Competiton bushing neck sizer. I understand I will need to measure the neck diameter of a loaded round and then subtract .002 to get the size of bushing I need to maintain .002 neck tension. Is this correct?

I also want to turn the necks. I'm dying up Hornadys neck Turner. At what point should I turn the necks on the lapua brass? Before fire forming, or after? I also want to get Hornadys concentricity gauge to check for run out on my loaded rounds.

How do I use the sinclair expander in conjunction with the redding bushing sizer? Which one should I use first? Would I use both every time? Would using either require the necks to be turned again?

LC

I'll add a few suggestions, there's quite a lot to your post. Briefly:

Fireform - you can also use a moderate (mid range) powder load for your new brass and seat your projectiles with a slight jam.

Neck turning - I do this using a K&M tool before firing new brass because I have a tight chamber. I also run new brass through a full length sizing die (not a bushing die) with the expander ball removed, then use a separate expander mandrel (K&M also make these). After the neck is sized down with the FLS die, I usually use a 0.306 expander although I have others in 0.0005 increments.

Dies - I suggest a standard FLS die, not a bushing die, with the expander ball removed. This will a) assist neck turning and b) allow you to expand up with a mandrel. With time you might consider getting a custom FLS die, it will work the brass less.

Seating - consider the L E Wilson inline die. Very good for low runout. If you want to neck size on occasions, you can also buy the Wilson in line neck die/decapper and use this with the appropriate bushing. Your thinking about a bushing 0.002 under loaded round size is a good starting point. Going this route you will need a small arbor press.

To answer the question regarding the 'order' - if you buy a Redding bushing die, use this first with an appropriately sized bushing and afterwards use an expander.

Hope this helps, at least in part.

Martin

 

[Straightshooter1]

Firstly, I would like to start with brand new Lapua brass, and fire form it to my chamber. Not 100% sure on which way I should do this. Cream of wheat, some match monster 175s from Midsouth since they are only $5 for 20, or another method. I plan to load with 175g Sierra Match Kings, and I also might try their Tipped Match Kings.

I plan to neck size only, and get both a Lee Decapper die and a Redding Body die to bump the shoulders .002 when I need to.

After fire forming, this is where I get lost with resizing.

I'm looking at Reddings Competiton bushing neck sizer. I understand I will need to measure the neck diameter of a loaded round and then subtract .002 to get the size of bushing I need to maintain .002 neck tension. Is this correct?

The thickness of the neck will determine what size bushing you will need to get that neck tension. As a bushing is squeezing from the outside, the thicker the neck wall is the smaller the inside diameter of the neck, which effect how far the bullet will push the neck out when seated.

And frankly, I don't like using an bushing for neck sizing as they tend to miss align the neck axis with the body axis (that's more run out that you'll have on a freshly fired case. For neck sizing only, a collet die is better at maintaining alignment of those axes. A FL sizing die without the expander ball also keeps those axes in alignment and then running a expander mandrel through it properly will minimize any miss alignment.

I also want to turn the necks. I'm dying up Hornadys neck Turner. At what point should I turn the necks on the lapua brass? Before fire forming, or after? I also want to get Hornadys concentricity gauge to check for run out on my loaded rounds.

I like to turn my case necks AFTER fire forming when the shoulder junction is set where it's not going to move much (except for what you may set the head space to.

IMHO, Hornady's concentricity gauge sucks . . . because it holds the case by the base which is often not square to the body's axis. A consentricity tool that rotates on two points of the body gives a better alignment to it's axis, which is what you what in aligning the neck's axis to.

The confusing part of neck sizing to me is the Sinclair expanding mandrel die. I understand this will help with uniform neck sizing on the inside of the necks, and also with neck tension, but the part that confuses me is how do I use the sinclair expander in conjunction with the redding bushing sizer? Which one should I use first? Would I use both every time? Would using either require the necks to be turned again?

LC

If you've got the correct size bushing for the neck thickness you have, you don't need the expander mandrel, nor if you use a collet die. Running an expander mandrel after using a bushing die will not align the axes miss alignment that the bushing has induce as the mandrel tend to be self aligning with the neck's axis. When using a FL sizing die, the neck will be sized down significantly aligning both axes and a Sinclair expander mandrel would be needed to get the neck tension you want and maintain good concentricity.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I recommend a fl bushing die. For 1000yds you will need to be over a 175smk so make sure your twist can support this.

 

[Zero333]

Full length size bumping shoulder 0.002" every time.

Fireforming loads are just as accurate.

185 Berger is a a good bullet to start with.

Varget or H-4895.

 

[Loudcherokee]

Thank you all for the replies.

So the consensus seems to be that there is no need for BOTH the bushing die and the expanding mandrel die. I see alot of suggestions for using a full length sizing die rather than neck sizing. Is this something that changed in the last 10 years? Back when I was still able to reload it seemed like neck sizing was all the rage for accuracy loads.

Doesnt using the full length sizing die negate the benefits of fire forming, since its sizing the case down to a factory spec case? Or since I have it set up to just bump the shoulders .002 is it not resizing anything else but the neck?

All my old pet loads are with Varget, but seeing as it is so hard to find, I'm thinking of changing to Reloder 15. I have a list of different powders I want to try. H4895 is on that list as well.

The barrel is a 1/10 twist and 24" long. From what I've read I should be able to reach 1000 with the right load.

LC

 

[JFrank]

My objective is to move the brass the least amount possible and still chamber freely, it may take trying a couple different dies to get one you really like.
Wilson makes excellent F/L bushing type die IMO YRMV
Benchrest guy’s typically FF others just load and shoot sizing just enough to (again )chamber freely until the brass stops growing before concerning themselves with bumping the shoulder.
BTW- mandrel new brass necks is a good practice

 

[10XSHOOTER]

42.0 of IMR 4064 with 168 or 175 Match kings will do just fine.

 

[Liven The Dream]

175 Sierra TMK and Berger 175 OTM work to 1000 yards .
as stated Berger 185 Juggernauts are Better for these you need enough throat in you barrel.
Brass Lapua or Peterson Small Primer is better .
Varget Powder is most used,4895 will bark harder .
CCI 450 SP are very Popular .
28" to 32" 1-10 Twist Barrels are the Norm.

Welcome back to the Rabbit Hole.
Don

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Thank you all for the replies.

So the consensus seems to be that there is no need for BOTH the bushing die and the expanding mandrel die. I see alot of suggestions for using a full length sizing die rather than neck sizing. Is this something that changed in the last 10 years? Back when I was still able to reload it seemed like neck sizing was all the rage for accuracy loads.

Doesnt using the full length sizing die negate the benefits of fire forming, since its sizing the case down to a factory spec case? Or since I have it set up to just bump the shoulders .002 is it not resizing anything else but the neck?

All my old pet loads are with Varget, but seeing as it is so hard to find, I'm thinking of changing to Reloder 15. I have a list of different powders I want to try. H4895 is on that list as well.

The barrel is a 1/10 twist and 24" long. From what I've read I should be able to reach 1000 with the right load.

LC

Neck sizing fell out of favor probably 50 years ago

 

[MoneyWaster]

Neck sizing fell out of favor probably 50 years ago

When I got into Precision shooting and reloading about 10 years ago I did a lot of reading about reloading practices, and for whatever reason I failed to realize that people stopped doing just neck sizing some time ago. So, I ended up with a Redding neck busing die for my .308.

My current .308 is a trued Rem 700 action with a Bartlein HV contoured barrel finished at 26”. It sits in an XLR Element chassis and I have a USO LR17 mounted on it. My load for this rifle is a 175 gn Sierra TMK over 43.8 gn of Varget. This load clocks at about 2750 fps with no signs of pressure. I get 10 shot groups to agg at 5/8” at 100 yards, which is pretty good for me (bipod and rear bag shot prone). It’s pretty accurate on 2 MOA steel out to 750. Beyond that my hit percentage falls off considerably. I think it’s the Indian and not the arrow that is responsible for that, however.

Anyway, the point of all of this is that i get away with neck sizing my Lapua brass for many firings before having to full length size due to tight chambering. I’m not sure why this is as my load seems to be fairly stout based on bullet velocity. Whatever the case, it’s what I do and it works for me. I have 12 reloads on my current brass and everything is nice and tight. I just started to anneal, so perhaps this is helping as well.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

When I got into Precision shooting and reloading about 10 years ago I did a lot of reading about reloading practices, and for whatever reason I failed to realize that people stopped doing just neck sizing some time ago. So, I ended up with a Redding neck busing die for my .308.

My current .308 is a trued Rem 700 action with a Bartlein HV contoured barrel finished at 26”. It sits in an XLR Element chassis and I have a USO LR17 mounted on it. My load for this rifle is a 175 gn Sierra TMK over 43.8 gn of Varget. This load clocks at about 2750 fps with no signs of pressure. I get 10 shot groups to agg at 5/8” at 100 yards, which is pretty good for me (bipod and rear bag shot prone). It’s pretty accurate on 2 MOA steel out to 750. Beyond that my hit percentage falls off considerably. I think it’s the Indian and not the arrow that is responsible for that, however.

Anyway, the point of all of this is that i get away with neck sizing my Lapua brass for many firings before having to full length size due to tight chambering. I’m not sure why this is as my load seems to be fairly stout based on bullet velocity. Whatever the case, it’s what I do and it works for me. I have 12 reloads on my current brass and everything is nice and tight. I just started to anneal, so perhaps this is helping as well.

So if it grows every firing until it gets tight, its not the same on every firing. Being consistent in every way you can eliminates that variable

 

[MoneyWaster]

So if it grows every firing until it gets tight, its not the same on every firing. Being consistent in every way you can eliminates that variable

Yep, I hear you Dusty. I was just pointing out that I’ve achieved decent accuracy with what I had been doing. I’m sure I’m leaving some Precision on the table with my process. I’d like to get a custom full-length sizing die for the .308 at some point. Got any recommendation?

Lou

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Yep, I hear you Dusty. I was just pointing out that I’ve achieved decent accuracy with what I had been doing. I’m sure I’m leaving some Precision on the table with my process. I’d like to get a custom full-length sizing die for the .308 at some point. Got any recommendation?

Lou

I have to recommend a whidden these days

 

[MoneyWaster]

I have to recommend a whidden these days

Thanks Dusty. I’ll look into it.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

Frankly - I would rather be shooting....I use Lapua Palma brass. CC1 BR4's, 155g Scenar and 46.5 Varget. No fireforming. No neck turning. No screwing around with mandrels. Shoots fine at 1000 yds. Won the 900/1000 yd yesterday using virgin brass. 13 twist barrel, Remington action. Dolphin stock and a Falcon scope, cos my Sightron is at the doctors. Rifle and ammo hold .25moa without all the messing about.

I do, however, resize new brass in a Forster Benchrest FL die. 4 thou neck tension. Forster Benchrest seater - no mic.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Has anyone tried the Stealth (Brass Lathed Projectiles)? Last year I bought a couple box of ARM's .308 Stealth Cartridges to give them a try and see how they performed. Upon firing 10 rounds I found they performed just awful in my gun where I got two 5 round groups just under 1.250 MOA at 100yds. So, when I got home I began measuring them in every way to see what I was dealing with. The bullet is seated in a Setpoint case below SAAMI spec (COAL was around 2.785"). Checking the consentricity, I found none with runouts less than .006 and most of them were like .010 - .012. The bullet is listed at 176 gr, and when I pulled some and weighed them, they were consistently a hair lighter. I weighed the powder from 10 cases and got a variance of +/- .002 grs. Since I didn't know what the powder weight was supposed to be, I took and weight the powder from the 10 cases and recharged them with the average, which was 41.7 grs. I sized the neck and reseated the bullet to just over SAAMI speck where that was giving me about a .155 jump. Measuring for run out, the came to +/- .0015. At the range the following week, I fired the 10 reloaded cartridges produced a group of .722 MOA . . .a big improvement of how the ARM had produced them, but still not as good as I expected.

Now, after a year of trying to decide what I wanted to do with the box of cartridges I had left, I decided to reload them but seat them out way closer to the lands (like .010 where I typically get good results). And because ARM now lists the powder and it's weight (42.0 gr of 4064)that they put in these cartridge, removed the powder to weigh it and make the weight as precise and consistent as I could to put back in the case. I hadn't realized it before, but because the bullets are particularly long for a 176 gr bullet and they were obviously compressing the load (REALLY compressing it) at SAAMI spec, and the powder was still being compressed when moved out close to the lands. With the bullets reseated and having .001 run out or less, I fired two five round groups and got .258 MOA and .391 with the Mangetospeed attached. Am going to have to try some more of these bullets (not cartridges) to see if such results can be consistent.

I only have one reservation concerning the effects of a brass bullet on barrel wear. If I can get these kinds of results in my .308 I'd like to continue to use them for LRS, but haven't seen or read anything about anyone's experience with them. Anyone have experience with them?

 

[Ned Ludd]

Loudcherokee - the limiting factors likely to be noticed immediately when shooting such a setup out to 1000 yd will be related to barrel length, chamber specs, and the rifling twist rate. You should be good to go with your 10-twist barrel, which will effectively stabilize most lead core bullets up to about 215 gr. The 24" barrel will be a limiting factor as you're not going to get the kind of velocities with that barrel length and the various weight bullets you might choose with good BCs that you would see out of a 28" to 30" inch barrel length. Nonetheless, it's what you have, so you'll need to work within that parameter. Finally, it will be important for you to determine how long the rifle is throated so you can decide what bullet weight you can effectively load. The shorter the throat, the shorter (lighter) the bullet needs to be in order to prevent the base of the bullet from being seated too far down into the case neck with a long (heavy) bullet, which occupies otherwise usable case volume, and causes higher pressure at a given velocity. Of course, if you're loading rounds to magazine length, that limitation, rather than the length of the throat, may be the more important factor in terms of realistic bullet selection [weight/length].

In general, the heavier the bullet, the longer it will be, and the higher the ballistic coefficient (BC) it will have. There are certainly exceptions to these generalizations, but they hold true for many bullets. Working under the assumption that the bullets you might choose from all have fairly similar stability (i.e. no major design issues that negatively affect performance), the higher BC bullets available within a given weight range will usually be your best choice to minimize wind deflection at 1000 yd. There are a couple different ways you can go with this. For example, a 155 gr .30 cal bullet will typically have a much lower BC than a 185 gr bullet. However, you can push the 155 gr bullet much faster out of a 24" barrel using a slightly faster powder, so the difference in wind deflection between the two bullets isn't as much as you might think. Nonetheless, when loaded to equal pressure, the heavier bullet with the higher BC will almost always show less wind deflection. In other words, it is not typically possible to push the lighter lower BC bullet fast enough at safe operating pressures to overcome its BC deficit as compared to the heavier/slower/higher BC bullet. The one exception to that generalization is Berger's 168 Hybrid. It has such a high BC for its weight that you actually can push it fast enough to overcome the BC deficit it has with the next higher weight class of bullets like the 185 Juggernaut. I'd suggest choosing the bullets you intend to use very carefully with this information in mind. The 175 Matchking may not your best option. It is a much older design with mediocre BC, and there are better options available in that weight range, such as the 175 TMK you mentioned, and Berger's 168 Hybrid, 175 OTM, or 185 Juggernaut, if you can load a bullet that heavy/long. Along the same line, the 195 TMK might be worth a look if you're not loading to mag length and the rifle is chambered with a sufficiently long throat to seat them optimally. Choosing the best bullet for your setup and desired use is a very important factor in getting the best performance.

The next suggestion I would make is with regard to your interest in turning necks. Unless you have a very good reason to do that, such as a tight neck chamber, I suspect your not going to gain any substantial benefit for a significant amount of work. I'd suggest buying quality brass, such as Lapua, Peterson, Alpha Munitions, etc., and not spend a lot of time or money getting set up to turn necks for a factory rifle.

The Redding Type S Match die sets are quite good, that's pretty much all I use for F-TR loads with .223 Rem and .308 Win. Depending on your choice of brass, you will probably need a bushing of 0.335", 0.336", or 0.337" for un-turned necks. If you choose to turn necks, slightly smaller bushings will be necessary. For un-turned Lapua brass necks, I have always found a 0.336" bushing to be the best choice to give approximately .002" neck tension (interference fit). I have spent a lot of time testing various methods and approaches to improve consistency of my reloads, including the notion of sizing the necks down slightly smaller than normal with a bushing, then opening up the necks with an expander mandrel that is .002" under bullet diameter as the final sizing step (i.e. 0.306"). In the method I tried, I used either a 0.334" and 0.335" bushing to size down the necks of Lapua brass, then used a 0.306" carbide mandrel to open tham back up in the final sizing step. In my hands, the mandrel approach gave no better consistency in terms of neck tension than using a bushing die, and it was twice as much work. In addition, using a mandrel that is exactly .002" under bullet diameter will actually give you somewhere in the neighborhood of .0025" to .0028" neck tension, because necks actually tighten up a bit due to the brass springback after the mandrel step, which is the opposite of what they do when squeezed down from the outside with a bushing. So I went back to using a Type S bushing die with a 0.336"bushing as my sole re-sizing step. If I turned necks, if I used a different brand of brass, if my chambers had tight necks, if I had some other problem that created excess runout (I don't), it is possible that the mandrel approach might have been of benefit. However, I didn't find the extra step offered any improvement over using the bushing die alone with my setup. More often than not, excessive runout has more to do with the sizing die or the sizing die setup than with seating bullets later. In other words, the case neck concentricity or straightness is often the underlying issue and you can usually do a little stepwise troubleshooting to identify exactly where in the process the runout occurred and correct the problem. I use a Rockchucker press with the Redding Type S Match dies (i.e. nothing fancy) that were set up exactly as described by the manufacturers' and have never had any issue with excessive runout.

Finally with regard to fire-forming brass, I don't want to waste a lot of time, effort, and reloading components to fire-form brass for a .223 Rem or .308 Win F-TR rifle without getting something in return more than just the satisfaction of seeing a puff of dust when the bullets go into the dirt. Frankly, you're probably not going to get any quantifiable benefit whatsoever from fire-forming brass in your setup. I prep virgin Lapua brass by the following method:

1) I open up all the necks using a Sinclair Oversized Expander mandrel (i.e. .001" under bullet diameter, not a neck-turning mandrel) in their Gen II die.

https://www.sinclairintl.com/reload...ls/generation-ii-expander-dies-prod38807.aspx

https://www.sinclairintl.com/reload...inless-steel-expander-mandrels-prod33134.aspx

2) I then size the necks back down with the appropriate bushing die (i.e. Redding Type S Match die with a 0.336" mandrel for .308 Win).

Afterwards, cases are further prepped by trimming, chamfering, etc., as you normally would. The necks on virgin cases prepped this way are very uniform and I shoot prepped virgin brass pretty regularly in local matches with good results, as well as in practice. There is no question that the load will have to be re-tweaked once all the brass has been fire-formed. In my hands the charge weight will usually need to drop by a couple tenths of a grain or so to maintain velocity in the fire-formed brass, and I always do a seating depth test. My point is that you can get a lot of good use out of properly prepped virgin brass, and you'll be learning what the rifle likes and doesn't like. I have never personally seen the benefit of putting hundreds of rounds into the dirt while fire-forming brass, when there is an opportunity to get something more useful in return.

 

[D-4297]

What he said ....I tried a 26" barrel for awhile at 1,000 and though it can "reach" that distance , it isn't really competitive for "F-class" , against 30" barrels and 185gr / 200+gr bullets your competitors will be using . 600 is doable with a 24" , and hopefully your chamber has enough F/B for 185 Berger's . Either the Juggernauts , or Hybrids .
And VV N-150 for a Varget substitute with the 185's .