.308 palma question
- Thread starter swampers
- Start date
Do you mean '308 Palma' brass? The Palma Trophy is shot for in 4-yearly international individual + team matches competition that has given its name to a specialist offshoot of 'Fullbore Rifle' / 'Target Rifle', ie single-shot prone sling-shooting with the 308 Win cartridge. See:
http://www.nra.org.uk/gbrt/2004/shooting/palma.htm
The Palma tournament is hosted in rote by GB, USA, Canada, Australia, South Africa. It is shot using .308 Win (or 223 Rem but that is hardly every used) which must be loaded with bullets 'weighing under 156gn' (or 81gn for 223). The host nation supplies ammunition for the tournament and it is shot over 800/900/1,000 yard stages with the trophy going to the winners of the final team matches.
Rifles are as per US 'Fullbore', GB/Australia/Canada 'Target Rifle', a discipline which is shot from 200 to 1,100 yards depending on the match and venue. In the USA alone domestic competitions may be run to 'Palma rules' limiting it to ammunition with 155gn bullets or to 'US Rules' allowing handloads with any bullet weights. Elsewhere, the 'less than 156gn' rule applies in all serious matches for all distances.
Around 10 years ago, Lapua developed its 'Palma' case at the request of the US Palma Team captains. This is identical to the normal 308 Win case except it has a small diameter flash-hole (1.5mm vice 2mm) and utilises a Small Rifle primer instead of the normal large size - ie the case-head is as per 6mmBR andf 6.5X47 Lapua. This gives a very strong case that will handle heavier loadings than most large primer cases and so has been widely adopted in other disciplines that shoot the 308, in particular FTR competition. Its original reason for development and adoption was to reduce velocity spreads to reduce long-range 'elevations' - which it does very efficiently, usually running a third less than same performance large primer loadings. The 'Palma' case accepts all 308 bullets and is loaded as per any other 308 Win case with minor load tuning to take account of its different (weaker) ignition characteristics. It is not used in commercial 'hunting' ammunition as it may produce hangfires / misfires with some powders in extreme cold conditions.
The 'Palma' name is trademarked, owned by the US Palma Teams and jealously protected by them. They have twice given permission to other parties to use the name in their products - Sierra Bullets for its original 155gn MatchKing bullet #2155, now transferred to its more recent development the #2156 design; Lapua for its small primer 308 case.
http://www.nra.org.uk/gbrt/2004/shooting/palma.htm
The Palma tournament is hosted in rote by GB, USA, Canada, Australia, South Africa. It is shot using .308 Win (or 223 Rem but that is hardly every used) which must be loaded with bullets 'weighing under 156gn' (or 81gn for 223). The host nation supplies ammunition for the tournament and it is shot over 800/900/1,000 yard stages with the trophy going to the winners of the final team matches.
Rifles are as per US 'Fullbore', GB/Australia/Canada 'Target Rifle', a discipline which is shot from 200 to 1,100 yards depending on the match and venue. In the USA alone domestic competitions may be run to 'Palma rules' limiting it to ammunition with 155gn bullets or to 'US Rules' allowing handloads with any bullet weights. Elsewhere, the 'less than 156gn' rule applies in all serious matches for all distances.
Around 10 years ago, Lapua developed its 'Palma' case at the request of the US Palma Team captains. This is identical to the normal 308 Win case except it has a small diameter flash-hole (1.5mm vice 2mm) and utilises a Small Rifle primer instead of the normal large size - ie the case-head is as per 6mmBR andf 6.5X47 Lapua. This gives a very strong case that will handle heavier loadings than most large primer cases and so has been widely adopted in other disciplines that shoot the 308, in particular FTR competition. Its original reason for development and adoption was to reduce velocity spreads to reduce long-range 'elevations' - which it does very efficiently, usually running a third less than same performance large primer loadings. The 'Palma' case accepts all 308 bullets and is loaded as per any other 308 Win case with minor load tuning to take account of its different (weaker) ignition characteristics. It is not used in commercial 'hunting' ammunition as it may produce hangfires / misfires with some powders in extreme cold conditions.
The 'Palma' name is trademarked, owned by the US Palma Teams and jealously protected by them. They have twice given permission to other parties to use the name in their products - Sierra Bullets for its original 155gn MatchKing bullet #2155, now transferred to its more recent development the #2156 design; Lapua for its small primer 308 case.
Last edited:
As I understand it, historically there was an issue with the Palma Match. At one time the host country provided identical rifles to all shooters and also provided the ammo. This changed so that the host country only provided the ammo and the competitors brought their own rifles. This gave a "home field advantage" to the host team because their rifles were built to accommodate the peculiarities of the ammo they shot. In the case of UK, they shot Radway Green ball ammo which generally had a bullet diameter of .307, so all their barrels had a bore of .307. This meant that visiting teams would have to get samples of the match ammo well in advance and have their rifles rebarreled and tuned to shoot that ammo. This changed every four years. Eventually everyone said, "Enough of this!" and they developed strict standards for the ammo used in the Palma matches. I presume a "Palma" reamer is designed to accommodate "Palma" standard .308 ammo.
Laurie, you have forgotten NZ, they hosted the 1995 Palma match and are due to present the 2019 Palma matches.
After the 2003 Palma match in GB, teams have provided their own ammo.
rkittine
Gold $$ Contributor
So for paper punching will using the Lapua Palma Brass and Small Rifle primers be a worthy advantage over the regular Lapua .308 Winchester Brass? I had a .308 long range custom rifle built that I have not shot yet. I have a box of Lapua .308 Winchester loaded rounds to start off getting fired cases to send to Whidden for custom dies and another 100 count box of unopened .308 Winchester. Should I sell all that and get Palma Rounds and Brass? I have a 1:12 twist barrel with free bore for the 155 to 168 grain projectiles as I understand.
Bob
Bob
Oops! Apologies to 'Kiwis' everywhere.
Shynloco
You can lead a horse to water, but ........
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but the question was asked above whether a Palma Reamer will allow for regular .308 Win Brass to be used in a Palma chamber? And if so, is there an advantage or better accuracy found using the Palma Brass with the small rifle primers for 100-200 yds shooting? Just curious. Thx.
Alex
Alex
Bob, no don't sell your 308 ammo. Use it in your rifle and you can 'upgrade' later as and when you want to or your on-range performance demands the last little bit of competitive advantage. (Or keep the large primer standard brass for short to mid range matches and adopt Palma case handloads for long-ranges where the reduced MV ES/SD values give a potential real benefit.)
Lapua Palma brass is identical to the original stuff, ignition arrangements aside. Any dies you get for the latter work equally well on the former, the only possible departure being that the sizer die MUST have a small diameter decap pin installed, the standard diameter usually being fractionally too large for the 1.5mm (0.059") flash-hole.
So far as chambers and reamers go, it is the favoured / standard FB / TR / Palma 155gn bullets and ideal freebore for it that determines most of the variations around. For years it was the older 155gn Sierra Palma MatchKing (2155) that determined the most popular chambers such as the PT&G Palma 95 and the UK 'Bisley 150' (named after the relevant section of the GB NRA's Rule 150 to end the practice of making the neck section very 'tight' leading to problems with some makes of issued 7.62mm milspec ammunition). More recent designs have different FB values to suit the current Palma SMK '#2156 with its much longer neck section and different ogive position. Usually minimum SAAMI dimensions or something close applies to the case part of the chamber specification irrespective of chamber variant. If you want to research that and lots of other things relating to rifles for this group of disciplines go to the US Rifle Teams Long-Range forum.
http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/
which is the specialist discussion and information site for Fullbore and Palma competitors.
In FTR, the restricted 223/308 using variant of F-Class, which sees 100% use of handloads and where most top competitors now use heavy Berger Hybrid designs (the US FTR team has adopted the Berger '200-20X Hybrid' model for the 4-yearly F-Class World Championship series to be in Canada next year) and very high-pressure loadings, the Palma case is both virtually essential and the norm in higher levels of the discipline thanks to its considerably greater strength. That also points up a potential advantage to the lower pressure user too - whilst standard Lapua brass likely sees around 10 loadings of a standard Palma load (155gn bullet at 2,950-3,000 fps from a 30-32" barrel), rather fewer if loads rise to 3,050 fps, with regular neck and shoulder annealing the Palma case goes on 'forever' 25+ loadings not unusual as the case-head and hence primer pocket don't expand until really horrendous pressures are encountered.
Alex, definitely yes to Q1 and probably no to Q2.
WSnyder
Silver $$ Contributor
As to Q1, my opinion is that some of the Palma reamers are too tight at the back end and many times result in sticky cases with some off the shelf dies. The Palma 95 reamer is certainly one of them. It's a PIA to get sticky cases after a couple of firings and then have to remove the barrel to open up the back end of the chamber. Not a big deal but avoidable if a reamer is speced with an extra .001"-.002" at the back end.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Swampers, The Palma reamer has a shorter "freebore"*, (it's designed for 155 class bullets that are shot in Fullbore Palma matches) and it is designed to cut a chamber that is closer to minimum SAAMI spec. Look at the measurement at .200 from the base, one is .4714 the other 1.4 thou smaller at .470. That makes a difference if you are reloading, you are sizing less and at some level should contribute to theoretical accuracy if the case is better aligned (though I wouldn't worry too much about that)
*Look at the bottom 4 measurements on the prints, they show the freebore/lead/throat measurements.
I don't know if you'll be jamming factory loaded bullets that are heavier than 155 class.
*Look at the bottom 4 measurements on the prints, they show the freebore/lead/throat measurements.
I don't know if you'll be jamming factory loaded bullets that are heavier than 155 class.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.