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.308 long range barrel - fluted, short bull barrel vs longer, unfluted/ lightly fluted

Hi All,

I shoot .308 from 1,000 to 1,500 yards. The competition rules limit the barrel weight to 2.5kg (5.5lbs). Most people use a 32-34" barrel to increase velocity, fluting the 34" barrel to get under the weight. Twist rates are 9-10. The top scoring ring is 10-14" depending on distance.

Most of us are using RS60/ RL17 and bullet weights of 200gr up, with Berger 215s, 220s and Sierra 210s being the most popular currently. Muzzle velocities are around 2750-2850 fps to ensure long range stability.

Given the velocities generated by double based powder, has anyone tested a shorter (e.g 24-28") bull barrel fluted down vs a longer, thinner barrel, or have any thoughts on whether a shorter, heavier barrel might be better for long range accuracy given the velocities needed and now able to be generated with RS60/ RL17?
 
Hi All,

I shoot .308 from 1,000 to 1,500 yards. The competition rules limit the barrel weight to 2.5kg (5.5lbs). Most people use a 32-34" barrel to increase velocity, fluting the 34" barrel to get under the weight. Twist rates are 9-10. The top scoring ring is 10-14" depending on distance.

Most of us are using RS60/ RL17 and bullet weights of 200gr up, with Berger 215s, 220s and Sierra 210s being the most popular currently. Muzzle velocities are around 2750-2850 fps to ensure long range stability.

Given the velocities generated by double based powder, has anyone tested a shorter (e.g 24-28") bull barrel fluted down vs a longer, thinner barrel, or have any thoughts on whether a shorter, heavier barrel might be better for long range accuracy given the velocities needed and now able to be generated with RS60/ RL17?
You are flirting with death, pal. Those velocities with those bullets are dangerous enough but trying to get that velocity range in a shorter barrel with more pressure is going to get someone hurt. Probably you but an innocent bystander might get hurt too. The pressures you are talking about are WAAY over anything even close to safe. An action can only take so much stress from 80,000+ PSI before it grenades....a few inches in front of your face. Or worse...drives the bolt through your skull.
 
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You are flirting with death, pal. Those velocities with those bullets are dangerous enough but trying to get that velocity range in a shorter barrel with more pressure is going to get someone hurt. Probably you but an innocent bystander might get hurt too. The pressures you are talking about are WAAY over anything even close to safe. An action can only take so much stress from 80,000+ PSI before it grenades....a few inches in front of your face.
Thanks Warren - pressures are safe - my max PSI is 61,500 in warm weather and below SAAMI limits having been extensively checked with Quikload, labradar, magneto speed etc. using Barnard action and Lapua small primer. Bullets are also moly'd. I can get another 2 full grains of RS60 in before starting to see pressure signs (flattened primer, stiffer opening etc) - obviously I don't load up to the max and leave plenty of leeway. We also use pressure trace systems to make sure we are safe and all rifles in the UK have to be officially proofed to show they can safely handle pressures significantly above those mentioned above. The main issue we find is barrel wear rather than action wear, the barrel tends to wear out after 2-3,000 rounds.
 
QuickLoad or a similar reloading program could be your friend here. You're talking about potentially significant trade-offs...increased velocity to keep the heavy bullets supersonic and/or stable out to those distances versus increased barrel stiffness/precision/resistance to heating and POI shifts. QuickLoad would allow you to make some reasonable estimates of velocity/pressure with differing barrel lengths and your bullet/powder of choice.

The real question in my mind would be how short could you actually go in terms of minimal barrel length when trying to lob heavy .308 bullets out to 1000-1500 yd and still realistically retain sufficient velocity for stability and precision. QL would be ideal for addressing this question. Once you know that answer, you can then determine how much weight savings the shorter barrel would represent, and how much heavier a contour it might buy you.

Unless the flutes in these 32"-34" barrels others are currently using are ridiculously deep, the weight savings as a percentage of the total barrel weight probably aren't that large. If that is the case, another possibility worth consideration might be a compromise of the two extremes you listed. That is, a barrel length of 28"-30" either simply without any flutes necessary to make weight, and/or just a slightly heavier contour...i.e. just enough to provide some extra stiffness, but still make weight. The concerns about velocity/pressure would be somewhat less in that scenario as compared to a heavier barrel in the 24"-28" length range.

My primary thinking here is simply that barrel stiffness doesn't buy you any velocity. So having a good estimate of how short the barrel can be and still provide the necessary velocity at safe operating pressure would be the place to start. Once you have some idea of that answer, figuring out approximately what that barrel length buys you in terms of weight savings heavier contours is relatively simple. QL might be of benefit in addressing that critical question. It's also worth mention that barrel length alone is not the sole variable in this equation in terms of velocity/pressure...it's also at what velocity/pressure a barrel of given length will tune in with a particular bullet/powder combination. Just because you can achieve a certain velocity with a certain length barrel doesn't necessarily mean that the load will tune in well at that velocity. QL can also help with predictions of that sort.

Finally, it is unclear to me exactly how much a heavier contour barrel really buys you. Obviously, when comparing extremes such as a straight contour versus a pencil barrel, the differences are pretty easy to anticipate. Comparisons of [closer] contours in between might be harder to differentiate. I have 30" barrels on different .308 Win F-TR rifles ranging from Heavy Palma to MTU to Heavy Varmint with a 1.35" shank. In fairness, all three of these contours would be considered relatively heavy. However, in both a relative sense and in actual weight, the HV barrels with the 1.35" shank are a much heavier contour than the Heavy Palma. Nonetheless, the Heavy Palma contour barrel is more than heavy enough to shoot just as well in my hands as the others over the relatively long (25+ shots) strings of fire in F-TR. Lots of F-TR trophies have been won by people using Heavy Palma contour barrels, so they obviously work well. Along the same line, the MTU contour barrels have a little more weight out front, which I like, but not everyone does. So it's not solely the barrel weight/stiffness, how that weight is distributed may also be a consideration. Notably, the Palma contour barrels have a curved taper and thus become thinner very rapidly after the straight contour at the breech end, meaning the front two-thirds of a Heavy Palma contour barrel will be noticeably thinner than an MTU barrel of the same length. The HP contour barrel will also be substantially lighter at a given length for the same reason. So in terms of figuring out how to save some weight in order to gain barrel stiffness, you may need to consider not only length, but how that weight is distributed in various barrel contours. Along this line, a call to a reputable barrel manufacturer may be of benefit. If you explain what you're trying to do, they can probably help you if anyone can.
 
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I never tried to intentionally run pressured like you are running, though the first time I tested 215s around 2013 I did get some single use Lapua Palma brass.

Have you side by side tested barrels to know how much more you are getting from the long tubes vs a 30" barrel? or is that just what everyone is doing?

I ask because about 10 yrs ago I tested a 34" barrel, with identical loads it was slower than my 30" with 185 Juggs. (they were called LRBTs back then). I cut it back to 32 before the first match with it. Then about 5 or 6 yrs ago I did side by side testing with identical loads in two 30" barrels and two 32" barrels using 200 Hybrids at about 2630FPS. My results indicated that the 2" extra barrel was worth about +15FPS avg. (in fact the ES of the barrels actually overlapped) I've never spec'd a barrel longer than 30" on my rifles since. The extra 15FPS didn't seem worth the effort.

Oddly enough there are more than a few F-TR shooters who refer to faster-than-most-anyone-else-shoots-them loads as "Aussie loads".
 
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Not sure about fluting slowing a barrel down but for the additional cost of fluting I see very little benefit. I have been competing in Match Rifle (the British type) for 26+ years and find that 32" medium Palma just makes weight and is a good compromise on stiffness. Others like the extra length up to 35" but I have found no need.

About the pressures , not everyone runs hot loads. You can load and shoot 215 grain bullets in a .308W without high pressure to 1500 yards, it just depends on powder choice. I am still using some light Winchester (155 grain) cases that were purchased in 1999 and I have lost count of the number of times they have been fired. Only time that I lose a case is when the primer pocket becomes loose with wear not pressure. I do cop a bit of ridicule for the squib loads I use but I have won my fair share of events and usually place reasonably well in international events.

Here in Aus, we have 2 1500yd ranges and we try to shoot those regularly, except that Covid has prevented us from doing so lately.
 

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