.308 loads for short, 20"Heavy-bbl Howa/Hogue?

[seanpmc69]

Posted this in the "Big Stuff" part of the Forum earlier because I didn't notice the "Reloading Forum". Re-posting it here, because this is probably where it should have gone in the first place...

New guy from Missouri here. I found this forum by searching for "accuracy loads for Howa/Hogue 20" Varmint .308." I'm hoping someone here has had some more time to play with the short Howa's, because the only post that came up was dated back to 2010.

What's really bothering me about this rifle is the fact that last fall, my Dad bought the cheapest, flimsy stocked Remngton Varmint rifle available (can't remember the model, but you can grab the fore-end and move it around like it's made of rubber). He is consistently shooting .5" groups, and generally closer to .375" at 100yds, where the (single) best group I've gotten out of this Howa so far is .625" at the same distance.

Best load so far (consistently repeatable) has been 44.7gr of IMR 4064 behind Sierra 168g BTHP Match Kings, and that was after going through the 10-shot "stepped load" method to find the barrel harmonics, but that's still only .75". This rifle should shoot better than that, IMO.

I've tried many different charge weights of 4064, which has always worked best for this size cartridge case for me in the past. Not so good in this rifle. So far Varget , and admittedly, I've only tried around three different charge weights with it so far, hasn't been any better (still using either Sierra or Hornady 168gr BTHP Match bullets).

My 90 yr old Grandpa dug around in his "stash", and came up with some 165gr, semi-round nose Speer Grand Slams that are probably older than I am. I loaded three with 45.0gr of Varget, and 2 shots cut the same hole, with the third a flyer. Final groups size was .625". That makes absolutely no sense to me, as they are nowhere close to the rifling (the Howa has way too much freebore, IMO), and they're round-nosed hunting bullets. The 3gr weight difference in the bullet shouldn't have made that much difference either, although the fact that they're straight-sided flat-based bullets may give them more bearing surface on the rifling.

So, any suggestions from people that have these rifles, and shoot for accuracy? Is the 1 in 10" twist rate too fast to try lighter bullets, or should I go up to the heavier Match Kings? Or is this just as good as it's going to get with the Howa? I find that hard to believe, since when I was a kid, Dad had a whippy-barreled Weatherby Vanguard (built by Howa) in .25-06 that would shoot factory hunting loads consistently at .5" or better. Only thing I can figure is the Weatherby version of the Howa had a 26" bbl, I think. Maybe that extra 6" was burning the powder more consistently...?

I've always shot Remington Varmint Rifles in the past, generally in 6mm Rem., and have always shot around .375" groups at 100. With Howa's excellent action, and the heavy barrel profile, this Rifle should shoot at least as good as the Remingtons, and I've got a much better 18oz trigger on this as well. What do you guys think, try a faster burning powder like the newer IMR 8208 XBR because of the short barrel? Heavier or lighter bullets? Or send it off to Douglas and get a longer XX Premium Barrel put on it?

Sean

 

[Johnboy]

Could be the fact that your rifle doesn't like a 168gn bullet.You stated that you have used 4064 and Varget,and for me that's two of the best choices for a 308 with many bullets ( in any weight ) I wouldn't hold onto the idea of just shooting a 168gn bullet,I would try the 175-8gn bullets,that should work just fine.If your not hung up on keeping them to mag length,try some in the lands or just off by .010 or so. ( over look the deep throat ) Remington does this and for me it helps,for I like to hang my loads out long.( I can only shoot one at a time so I load one at a time to shoot )

Try the 175-8gn bullets with either powder,I think you should be able to fine a load.I say this for I have been working on a 20"sps for a friend with 4064 ( 44gn ) and a 178gn BTHP ( Hornady ) He wanted them to be mag length,but had to hang them out for the amount of powder being used. ( main goal was 2650fps or better as safe as I could without pressure being a problem ) So far I have a node with this load,but might change if need.I started at 41.5gn and worked up to 43gn but didn't find accuarcy and that was at a SAMMI spec length.Played around on QuickLoad and found that the 2.850 should be safe with 44gn and it worked.This is why I stated that keeping them at a SAMMI spec in length might hender you.Just be safe at what your doing and you will find a load.............

 

[mac86951]

As stated, try different bullets, your rifle will like some and not others. Also, for accurate load development, once you find a powder charge, then re-do the ladder testing keeping the same powder charge, but varying the seating depth (IE Distance to the lands). When you find that accurate point, repeat the powder charge ladder, but smaller increments. This is fine tuning for harmonics. I've found big improvements by adjusting seating depth once powder charge is found.

Also, with a shorter barrel, a faster burn-rate powder might improve consistent velocities. You can use a chrono to see where you're at now, or re-develop with ladder testing. Sticking with IMR, 4895 would be faster, and 4320 slower in burn rate.

Finally, with .308 concentric loading can be a factor too. Do you have a concentricity gauge? If not try the above first, and this part last, as it usually means neck-turning, new dies, or what not. All else being equal, I'd think you can get a good load using the right powder/bullet before concentricity makes a huge difference. It might bring the groups closer, or eliminate some random fliers.

-Mac

 

[broncman]

My 20" barreled remington 700AAC likes 178 Hornady BTHP with 43.6 varget and 185 Berger Juggernauts with same load. Use a match primer as this is a warm load at mag length.

It is a 1 in 10 as well. Shoots very well, 1/2" groups at 100.

 

[seanpmc69]

Thanks guys. Yes, I've got a concentricity gauge, and the necks have been turned. Had to because the only brass I've been able to find lately are loaded CBC Nato rounds. Had to trim them to length, square-up the primer pockets, etc.

I went to Grafs yesterday (only live 20 miles away from them), and the only 308 bullets they had on the shelf were 125g Sierras. I was going to try one of the heavier match bullets, or even a heavier Hornady bullet, but the stuff is flying off the shelves faster than they can get it in stock. Been wanting to try that IMR 8208 XBR, but they have been out of it for the last three weeks. the burn rate is faster that 4064, so I thought that might help with the short barrel.

Anyway, I'll see what the 125's do today, although they're so short they aren't going to get anywhere close to the lands. I was able to get the 168's to the lands, then back them off a couple thousands.

I shot Benchrest religiously bout 20 years ago, then got on the PPC kick for a while, followed by Anschutz 60 meter shooting, and sporting clays, so it's a whole new game for me with all the new equipment that has come out in that time period. I also almost exclusively shot 6mm Rem back then, so I don't have much experience with .308's. I knew they were an inherently accurate cartridge, so this time around, I decided to try one out.

Last bench rifle I had was around ten years ago, and it was a Bushmaster "Varminter" AR. That thing would shoot .25 to.375 consistently all day long, but their two-stge match trigger was crap. I wish I had kept it now that they have fantastic triggers available, but on the bright side, I shot it for year, then sold it for about $300 more than what I had in it.

I'll keep plugging away with it, but my main concern was whether the Howa will even shoot any better tha .625 at 100. I know the action is good, and with a little stone work on the "actuator" part of the trigger assembly, I managed a safe, 18oz trigger pull with a clean break. Point is, it's either down to me and the loads, or it just as good as I'm going to get with the stock bbl.

I'm wondering now what it's going to do with the 125gr spitzers in that 1 in 10" bbl, but I guess I'll find out here in a few hours...

Sean

 

[mac86951]

Thanks guys. Yes, I've got a concentricity gauge, and the necks have been turned. Had to because the only brass I've been able to find lately are loaded CBC Nato rounds. Had to trim them to length, square-up the primer pockets, etc.


Anyway, I'll see what the 125's do today, although they're so short they aren't going to get anywhere close to the lands. I was able to get the 168's to the lands, then back them off a couple thousands.



Sean

My HOWA in .30-06 will do it, but it is very picky about bullet and seating depth. The 180grs I need to jam for accuracy, and I'd suspect you might be in the same boat with your .308, but work up carefully. I don't neck turn so that might be why I get better results this way.

Also, check if your stock touches the barrel. HOWA did this initially and came up with some BS reason why it needs to, but only the SUB-MOA model or Range Certified models are pillar bedded and free-floated. What this means, is shoot far slower, letting the barrel cool down between shots.

Finally, I'd re-check seating depth from 0.020 jump to jam (careful!) the 168s usually like a jump of ~0.010" but I'm not too experienced with them, so that was my initial result.

-Mac

 

[wwbrown]

When accuracy is worse than I think it should be I first check the scope mounts and rings and if the accuracy has not gotten better swap in a scope that is know to function properly. After that I check the action screws then if the forearm is hitting the barrel, etc.

All of the above is done shooting known quantities that are known to generally work in that caliber. Your powder and bullet choice is sound but I do not know if the brass you are using is good quality. So maybe check the above and beg someone to give/sell you some brass that is known to be able to load rounds of acceptable accuracy and try again.

Have fun,

 

[jonbearman]

I have a 20 inch barreled remmy that shoots the 168's fine with around 41.0 grains of h335.It will happily shoot 1/2 inch at 100 yds easily and the 175's not as good.One nice hunting bullet I always liked was hornadys 165 spire point.They shoot like match bullets for me.I dont know if they even make them anymore.The other powder I have found to be decent is IMR8208 XBR powder.It shoots real well in all my .308's.Try the ball powder and see what you think ,either h335 or blc-2 or AA2520 and AA2460 are great powders.

 

[seanpmc69]

Your powder and bullet choice is sound but I do not know if the brass you are using is good quality. So maybe check the above and beg someone to give/sell you some brass that is known to be able to load rounds of acceptable accuracy and try again.

You were right about the brass. I got my brother to cough up 6 of his already prepped Winchester brass, and loaded three with 175gr Match Kings, and 42.5gr of 4064. Got a .510" 100yd group. Same bullet and powder charge in prepped CBC cases got me two shots cutting each other, but the third was a flyer giving me a 2.11" group. We started checking the CBC cases with water, and by the time we checked half a dozen of them it was obvious that they are useless for Bench work.

I loaded the other three Winchester cases with 43.4gr of 4064, and 168gr Match Kings, and got a .433" group. I can live with that, but all I did was pick a random load out of the Sierra book. I think with some fine tuning of the load, it should shoot better yet.

All in all, I'm happy with the Howa now, and because of their new trigger, I'm glad I chose it over a Remington this time. After some stoning on the "actuator" part of the new H.A.C.T. trigger, it averages 18oz on an RCBS digital pull gauge, and is still fully safe. I think I'm going to drill and tap the back of the trigger guard for a stop-screw though, because it does have quite a bit of overtravel.

Also, check if your stock touches the barrel. HOWA did this initially and came up with some BS reason why it needs to, but only the SUB-MOA model or Range Certified models are pillar bedded and free-floated.

Mine has the Hogue Overmold stock with the aluminum bedding pillars, and is fully free floated. One thing that probably helped today though was using a torque wrench on the action bolts. When I did the trigger-job, I didn't have a torque wrench at that location, but I was shooting with my brother today, and he had one with him.

The Hogue stock would be fine for hunting, but I think I'm going to have to invest in something else. The "sticky" Overmold layer won't let the rifle slide on the bags properly, and I'd rather have a flat-bottomed fore end of some sort anyway.

Thanks for the help and suggestions everybody.

 

[mac86951]

Excellent, I'm glad you are happy, and good thinking on the action torque. I tend to forget that one myself...

I picked up an off the shelf Vanguard 2 in 30-06 and I love to see how it performs right out of the box with good hand loads. I'll be changing the stock too in the future, as this is the standard not free-floating model, and the barrel does heat up quickly, but 3 shots every time right in a triangle just touching.

-Mac

 

[seanpmc69]

this is the standard not free-floating model, and the barrel does heat up quickly, but 3 shots every time right in a triangle just touching.

Dad had a Vanguard at one time (20+ years ago) in .25-06, with the really light bbl. profile, and the pressure point/points at the fore-end. It would shoot factory loads at .5" consistently. His was also straight out of the box. I think the only thing he did was work on the trigger, then put it right back in the stock, pressure points and all.

His got hot pretty quick too, and after shooting around 100 rounds through it prairie dog hunting while visiting relatives in Kansas, his entire shoulder was literally black and blue. He traded it for a Remington Varmint in .22-250 as soon as we got back to MO...

 

[mac86951]

Dad had a Vanguard at one time (20+ years ago) in .25-06, with the really light bbl. profile, and the pressure point/points at the fore-end. It would shoot factory loads at .5" consistently. His was also straight out of the box. I think the only thing he did was work on the trigger, then put it right back in the stock, pressure points and all.

His got hot pretty quick too, and after shooting around 100 rounds through it prairie dog hunting while visiting relatives in Kansas, his entire shoulder was literally black and blue. He traded it for a Remington Varmint in .22-250 as soon as we got back to MO...

I can imagine, I am still working up to a comfortable way to shoot 50 rounds of 30-06 in a session. Going from .223 to .30-06 with heavy bullets, I've learned that I needed to work on my shouldering technique a little bit. First 50-round set I wasn't flinching, but some of the later shots had a bit more time inbetween...

-Mac

 

[Johnboy]

If this helps you in any way here goes.My friend was able to find some Hornady 178gn BTHP's the other day.I just loaded 15 rounds to test with at 3.000,this was just into the lands of his 20" sps.I started at 44gn and worked up in .5gn to 45gn of 4064.For now we will be shooting the one's I loaded tomorrow,so soon after I'll post to what happened.

 

[seanpmc69]

worked up in .5gn to 45gn of 4064.

45.5gr of 4064 is the max load I've run through mine with 168gr Match Kings. No signs of overpressure on the cases, but it was totally flattening the primers, and slightly cratering around the firing pin strike. With 175gr bullets, 45.0gr of 4064 would probably do the same thing in my rifle. That was with Sellier & Bellot primers though, and they're pretty flat looking to begin with. They also seem to be made of lighter material than our domestic primers.

I found three boxes of Winchester white-box ammo at a gun show Sunday. They were marked 7.62x51 instead of .308, and after a little web-searching, it seems they were some kind of government contract overrun. They have a WCC headstamp, but also have the NATO crosshair stamp, and a "13" stamp, so I'm assuming they are NATO spec cases, rather than commercial cases with NATO markings.

I shot all day today to get rid of the FMJ's, then started prepping the cases. When I went to remove the NATO primer crimp, I found that there was no primer crimp, so I don't know if these are some kind of hybrid load they came up with just to use up the excess cases, or what. They don't even show up on Winchesters website.