308, lee collet and FL bushing die??

[Martin52]

Simple mistake when I bought my first Lee collet die - raised the ram against the bottom of the die without a case in the shellholder, damaged the fingers. Bought a replacement and it produces pretty low run out. I do use other dies but for quick neck sizing the Lee is hard to beat.
Martin

 

[I_shoot_for_fun]

found the thread where the adjusting of the collet dies are so well described:

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?48671-lee-collet-dies-neck-tension/page2

 

[243DH]

yeah set it up right, two turns below die contact so the rock chucker wouldn't "cam over" and applied well below the recommended max of 25 ft/lbs on the press handle. Maybe I am more of a BA than I thought. I have had other issues with this die so maybe I got a turd. I do like the concept and it is so simply ingenious. I might have to try one out in 243, heck they are cheap enough.

 

[BoydAllen]

As I said in my post, I don't run collet dies "by the book". I insert a case in the shell holder and then start adjusting the die downward in the press till I feel the slightest toggling as the ram passes through its highest position. What I had done in the past, that damaged my 30-30 die, was to adjust for a heavy toggle, a real press stretcher. Stop when you get the slightest toggle, and you should be OK. If the neck tension is not enough, measure the mandrel diameter and order a smaller one, or chuck it up in a drill, fold some 320 grit wet/dry around it and pull the trigger. Work it down a little at a time, until you get the neck tension that you need. It's not rocket science, but you would be surprised how many fellows have a problem with something this simple. My first suggestion, for a new user, is to take the die apart so that you familiarize yourself with how it works. Hopefully, when you look at the parts, it will become obvious.

 

[Trevor60]

With this, you can first use the collet die and then run the cases through your body die. The order matters. Using the collet die first produces better runout.

Hi Boyd

Could u expand on your comment.. i do the operation the other way around and use a bushing. My bushing is large for a 308 ..339 bushing i run the brass up the redding die while using the bushing because i think i get a straigther body and only slightly size the neck, the bushing acts as a guide. (i have a .341 chamber) then i finish the operation with the collet die as any imperfections in the neck are now pushed to the outside with the mandral and are more concentric. i have had good results but am always looking to load better rounds

Thanks
Trevor

 

[bozo699]

With this, you can first use the collet die and then run the cases through your body die. The order matters. Using the collet die first produces better runout.

Hi Boyd

Could u expand on your comment.. i do the operation the other way around and use a bushing. My bushing is large for a 308 ..339 bushing i run the brass up the redding die while using the bushing because i think i get a straigther body and only slightly size the neck, the bushing acts as a guide. (i have a .341 chamber) then i finish the operation with the collet die as any imperfections in the neck are now pushed to the outside with the mandral and are more concentric. i have had good results but am always looking to load better rounds

Thanks
Trevor

Trevor,
I can't speak for Boyd as he has forgotten more than I probably will ever know and Mikecr will disagree with me but I believe consistency is key to accuracy and I don't believe you can achieve consistency,consistently by neck sizing only. I use a body die ALWAYS so my body and shoulder is always consistently the same of course how you lube and other factor play into this but I try to keep everything consistent. After the body die I neck size with a neck bushing die so I can control exactly how much of the neck gets sized and how much it gets sized. I believe to be totally consistent by neck sizing only you would have to mark the case and index it back into the chamber exactly the same way it came out every time also you would always have to shoot the exact loads as to not create different pressures on or in the case. This may being nit picky but trying to shoot in the single digits is a nit picky business. I think I am at the stage in my reloading that I am going to start buying reamers to build my own dies for my chamber to get even more consistent, after all it's only money and my coffin will be full enough with just me in it
Wayne.

P.S I own several Lee collet dies, I neck turn all my custom rifles brass which is a large percent of my collection but for some of my old hunting rifles that have not been re barreled, family keep sakes and such the collet dies work fine in conjunction with a body die, as a matter of a fact for that application there far better then a bushing die because the necks aren't turned.

 

[BoydAllen]

Trevor,
Assuming that you can get a fired case out of the action, without the neck hitting anything (like the inside of the action, due to the action of an ejector) I would suggest that you measure the concentricity of a fired case (with the indicator very near the case mouth), then use your body die to size the body and bump the shoulder .001 or so, and then take another reading. When I take the bushing out of my bushing type FL die (6ppc), making it into a body die, the two readings are the same. Let me know what you get. In regards to my direction as to the best order of operations, I tested by doing it both ways. IMO floating bushings are more likely to cause concentricity issues than prevent them. Bushings have runout, if they are steel or coated steel. Some are a lot better than others, and it is a random thing.
Boyd

 

[bozo699]

Trevor,
Assuming that you can get a fired case out of the action, without the neck hitting anything (like the inside of the action, due to the action of an ejector) I would suggest that you measure the concentricity of a fired case (with the indicator very near the case mouth), then use your body die to size the body and bump the shoulder .001 or so, and then take another reading. When I take the bushing out of my bushing type FL die (6ppc), making it into a body die, the two readings are the same. Let me know what you get. In regards to my direction as to the best order of operations, I tested by doing it both ways. IMO floating bushings are more likely to cause concentricity issues than prevent them. Bushings have runout, if they are steel or coated steel. Some are a lot better than others, and it is a random thing.
Boyd

Boyd,
I will agree with you 100% on the bushings, I have many many of the same sizes but in reality there not all the same size, that's why I have so many. I used to have problems with my bushing dies and even threatened to throw them away but after talking to you and a couple others, decided I was sizing way to much at once and I wasn't turning, the last four chamberings I have keept this in mind when ordering a reamer, for those rifle I have to turn just to get them to chamber so I can control how much of everything, it's made a huge difference in concentricity. What type of dies are you using for you BR rigs Boyd? I also have some questions regarding scales that I need to p.m you if it's still okay.
Wayne.

 

[BoydAllen]

No problem

 

[Trevor60]

i will see if i can run some test.. but it seems like my method has already been tested and proven less concentric . Yourself and German Salazar have come to the same conclusion. I will definately have to try your way first. See his article on sizing...neck first then body.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html

i will give it a go see how it works

Trevor

 

[BCoates]

I know this is an old thread, but I have the same question with a little different scenario. I have a 308 Win that I use for F-TR competitions. The chamber has a .343" neck, and I run unturned Lapua brass. To achieve consistent neck sizing I used a FL bushing die and size first with a .339" bushing and then a .336" bushing. My neck runout varies from 0.000-0.004".

My idea is to size my brass first with a Lee collet die and then with my FL bushing die with the 336" bushing. My reason for using a bushing in the FL die is to get the same neck tension that I have today since all of my load development has been using this level of neck sizing.

My questions are: will this solve my neck runout issue? and should I just leave the bushing out of the FL die?

 

[BoydAllen]

Order several mandrel sizes from Lee, so that you can play with neck tension just like you would with sizing bushings, and leave the bushing out of your FL die, making it a body die. In one case where I tested, using the collet die first, worked better, but do your own testing.

 

[JohnKielly]

As far as runout goes, the Lee is the best thing since sliced bread IMHO. I'd back Boyd's suggestion to buy several size mandrels, or chuck one up in a bench drill press with a Jacobs style chuck & polish it down with 600 followed by 1000 grit until you get the tension that works. The chucks have a slot in the jaws at just the right spot for a Lee mandrel.

I've found that the Lee alone minimises case distortion to the extent that I seldom need to size my brass.

 

[andre3k]

If you like the tension achieved by the collet die, then remove the bushing from the FL Die and use it like a body die.

FL size the case first, then collet the neck for the least run out. IMO two stage sizing is better for accuracy. Also, After sizing with the Lee Collet Neck Die, let the cases stand and 'rest' for a few days after sizing. I have noticed the brass springs out to a more consistent seating force, than of you were to seat bullets right away. This is a benefit, because this allows you to prep and size brass ahead of time, and have them ready to load at your convenience. This proceedure is the opposite of a bushing type die, where you need to seat bullets as soon as possible, after sizing, to get the most consistent seat force.

If you're serious about reloading just get Redding Computition Dies and read everything about reloading and have fun.

I beg to disagree that the Redding dies are the catch all, do all, There is nothing wrong with the Lee Collet Die, this design is the best for neck sizing. However, the problem with Lee is the finish of the die, but the collet on the mandrel sizing method is the best.

I couldn't agree more. I also use the redding die w/o the bushing as a body die then neck size with the collet die. Produces very low runout rounds.

 

[Joe R]

I have 3 different type of Redding dies including the S-type bushing dies. I've spent about $400 on Redding 308 dies and bushings. Out of frustration, because I could not minimize runout, about a month ago I decided to give the Lee Collet Die (LCD) a try. 22BR guy (another user here) had told me about them. I had been skeptical about Lee stuff because it is so inexpensive. After reading the article below by John Valentine (see below) I set it up and gave it a try.

I was totally blown away by the results. All my Lapua brass turned out with .001 runout. I even pulled out some cases that I had given up on ever getting concentric, but because they had only 3 firings on it, I couldn't bring myself to throw away. Well after putting them through the LCD they came out with .001 runout. I highly recommend the LCDs, a $22 die that does a better job then my $130 Redding Competition Neck Sizing die (die + plus nitride bushing).

Right now I have 3 custom mandrels on order from Lee, .001-.003 undersize. Get this.... they cost $5 each!!! If Redding made this die it would cost $150 and $30 for the custom mandrels.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[DanConzo]

What is nice about the mandrels is you can work them down w/ emery spun on lathe or drill to whatever sizes needed.

 

[broncman]

Redding body die to size and bump. Then a Lee collet die for the neck. Do not think you can get any straighter ammo.

 

[BCoates]

I ordered a Lee Collet die. I will run some tests using my FL bushing die as a body die to see if the differences in neck tension affect my load.

 

[BoydAllen]

Just remember, you increase/change neck tension by changing or modifying the collet die mandrels, not by more pressure on the press handle or harder toggling. To make a valid comparison with a bushing die, would require a small additional investment in a few mandrels.

 

[Yetiman]

I have been using the Lee collet die followed by a Redding FL S die with the guts pulled to make a body die as Boyd Allen suggested here and to me in another thread I started (Thank You !).

I have had excellent results, and just wanted to add that I ordered several mandrels from LEE on January 5th 2014 and I received them on January 14th. Don't be put off by long estimated lead times quoted on their web site.