power55316
Gold $$ Contributor
thanks for the help guys I just ordered some Peterson brass
308 lake city match brass
- Thread starter power55316
- Start date
This is an old thread...but here is what I found with Lake City brass. I separated hundreds 18 LC brass into two weight classes only. Shot the same exact load in my long range rifle with both Lapua and Lake City brass.
100 yd 5 shot group:
Lapua brass = .314" 2564 fps ave 2.4 S/D
Lake City Brass = .479" 2572 fos ave 4.8 S/D
Also Ar 10 130 Speer 47.7 gr 748 with this Lake City brass 5 shots into .377" very good for an AR 10.
Checked the fired AR 10 for squareness to the case body...they are nice and true zero indicator movement around or across the case head.
I have dual ejectors in the AR 10 so that may help with equal pressure on two sides when chambered, but probably has little influence.
Nothing drastically wrong with Lake City brass, but the edge goes to Lapua as you can see in the accuracy and velocity test, but unless you're group shooting Lake City is very usable...but confidence is the mental winner.
As a retired machinist I have the tools to check,.. there is alot of misinformation about out of square case heads. I didn't check any machinegun brass fresh out of the military guns, but after fired in my rifles and AR 10 they were square...plus these so called not square cases have shot 10 shot groups inside an inch at 100 yds...and 3 shots into .088" 4 into .222" and 5 into .377" with cheap Speer bullets and cheap LC brass and a mag feed AR 10 at 100 yds. So I use them, but not in all applications, as confidence in competition is half the battle.
Out of my AR10 they are square after the 1st firing as I just measured them, no difference from Lapua..I have dual ejectors but I doubt that makes a difference. I'm a retired machinist, and have a surface inspection plate, with a drop indicator. The case is put into a holder machined on a Hardinge lathe to the same case taper at the 308 case.The taper locks the case into the machined holder parallel and perpendicular to the case head. Put on the Micro flat with the drop indicator, with a V Block to hold the case holder in place as you turn in place on the cartridge case head. No indicator movement means the case head is perpendicular to the body ...or square. Option 2 is put case and holder in a milled horizontal V groove in the Bridgeport mill the install the inspection indicator in the spindle collet ...zero the indicator and run it across the case head, no movement, means it's square to the case body. Use what ya want but LC cases have a place, I've tested them, they are not the best, but their pretty good, and capable, for a cheap price, so ya won't cry when ya lose em in the field.
I just tested some LC brass in bolt and ar 10.
The Lapua brass was .165" better shooter at 100 yds with the exact same load with 5 shot groups.
All brass was measured after firing in both bolt and AR 10 both were square. I have the tools to accurately measure this as a retired machinist with machine tool and inspection equipment.
Checked one of few unfired rounds loaded in this LC18 brass, with no history of what is was fired in (machineguns?) It was square as far as I was concerned the dial hardly moved. With CNC machines most everything is machined to spec and square if required. In the AR 15 I center the bolt carrier, because there is .035 clearance all around. The AR 10 has a heavy center mass that fits better, so it remains stock as of now, and it has shot 5 shot groups into the .3" s with LC brass, and the bullets it likes. LC brass is great on for buget brass , for general shooting, hunting, varmints, informal steel, and most needs, but for competition I'd probably use Lapua just for the confidence, and pick up the extra .165" at a hundred in accuracy as per my limited test. Your results may differ.
Yep, perfect example, Lake City brass can get the job done, especially with a talented, dedicated, and confident shooter...
Was the load you shot for comparison developed on the lapua brass or the LC?
What negative effect does an out of square case head have?
The load was developed for Lapua brass, then the exact powder charge and bullet loaded in Lake City brass as an experiment to see the difference between the 2 cases Lake City and Lapua. As you can see LC is pretty good, especially for the price.
I checked a few of my lake city brass it's all square before and after firing. So no effect on accuracy. I'd have to have a variety of LC brass fired in various machineguns and a auto rifles, and check for squareness first to find any out of square and reload those. A prominent gunsmith said years ago that, "high chamber pressures have a way of straightening out things." After firing 3 shots into .088" and 5 into .374" with 308 Lake City brass at 100 yards out of a Proof Research Stainless AR 10 barrel, Lake City looks pretty good. No brass perp, just loaded on a Dillon progressive, with 748 powder and a cheap Speer bullet then dumped in a plastic gallon freezer bag as range plinking rounds...a 15 cent bullet and old w748 powder that was $14 a pound...just to find out the barrel really likes this combination, magazine feed with a long jump with a too fast barrel twist optimized for that bullet...shoots small groups. AR 10s and 15s are capable of shooting 10 shots into less than an inch with LC brass. 5 shots bumping the edge of 1/4" with LC brass . Never looked for squareness in any LC brass just trim load and shoot, 308, 300 blackout, 5.56, 300 Ham'r with a good barrel these this brass is very capable of small groups, and ya don't have to worry about losing them. Squareness?..I wouldn't even be concerned about it, for my application of LC brass. No bolt or bolt face is perfect as it seats behind the cartridge case, and the cartridge is not perfectly centered in the bore in which the bore and chamber are never in perfect alignment, and no bullet prefectly centered in its case, on and on with variables each shot. You can get close but never perfect...too many variables, with tolerances in order for the system to operate. I use a lot of Lapua brass, but alot more Lake City brass for much of my shooting, it works for me as I apply it, and uses the same sizing bushing as Lapua...not so with Winchester. I have a better neck chamber fit with Lapua and Lake City, as per chamber reamer.
You can absolutely use it for F Class.
If you don't think it through, you will generally get most consistent brass from Lapua... But at what cost?
And how exactly do we define most consistent? By weight? Maybe... By neck thickness? Not so much.
So how do you get consistent brass from a pail of brass that is not consistent?
Think it through like a riddle. The answer is easy.
Over the entire pail, the brass is not as consistent as premium brass... But you can still identify the brass that is the same.
Process all of it. First with a regular sizing die, then again with a small base die. Turn the necks on all of it. Anneal all of it. Tumble all of it in stainless media, then deburr the mouths.
Weigh every case and write the weight on each case with a sharpie. Then sort the cases into groups within 1/10th of a grain.
You will end up with batches of several hundred that are all within 1/10th of a grain. Just keep them together.
Once you fire form this brass in your rifle, it will be blown out to your chamber and then its as good as any brass out there... maybe better... Lake City brass is tough so it will last and this process makes it consistent.
I defy anyone to prove they will get better results using random cases from a purchased bag of "good" brass.
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I too earned a Master card shooting LC brass but being a bolt gunner was not eligible for the Distinguished badge though at state matches I did make 'The Governor's 10' list a couple of times. My congrats to you chkunz for earning your badge, not easy to attain and does represent an accomplishment through perseverance on your part.
It would be helpful to separate the cases by dates and also look if any cases are knurled around the circumference near the web. Those cases were usually M852 and loaded with the Sierra 168 grain International bullet which was/is a HPBT and 'NOT FOR COMBAT' as marked on the box. It was suppose to be used in competition/matches and theoretically extra case was taken in loading the round hence the case would have a better chance of 'being within specs'.
Of interest Ray123 is that you loaded the Speer 130 grain and that is what I shot at the 200 yard stages when shooting across 'The Course'. I pushed it with 44 grains of 2230 Data Powder which would not be too far off of your load of 47.7 grains of 748.
It would be helpful to separate the cases by dates and also look if any cases are knurled around the circumference near the web. Those cases were usually M852 and loaded with the Sierra 168 grain International bullet which was/is a HPBT and 'NOT FOR COMBAT' as marked on the box. It was suppose to be used in competition/matches and theoretically extra case was taken in loading the round hence the case would have a better chance of 'being within specs'.
Of interest Ray123 is that you loaded the Speer 130 grain and that is what I shot at the 200 yard stages when shooting across 'The Course'. I pushed it with 44 grains of 2230 Data Powder which would not be too far off of your load of 47.7 grains of 748.
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searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
This in old thread - but for the sake of those of us re-reading it - nothing wrong with the LC brass - and most (if not all) LC .308 Match brass found today of recent manufacture would have likely been fired in a bolt gun - not a semi-auto. And the military does not shoot Match brass in any machine guns to my knowledge - so I think there was a bit of misinformation there........
fatelvis
Silver $$ Contributor
Riflewoman, do you subscribe to the practice of using brass only 4 firings in a M1A? I know you competed with this rifle in the past, and I was wondering if you worried about the case head squareness when firing the last three loadings on the brass. Or did you only compete using virgin brass?
What's the difference between LC-match and LC-LR brass ? I was under the impression the LC-LR brass was there match brass , didn't realize they had both . I have a bunch of LC-LR brass that is very good stuff . Just as consistent as Lapua and was not crimped either at the mouth or the primer pocket .
You can go up to 6 from new. In my era, we shot LC M118 match ammo then loaded the brass 5 times. Each time through I trimmed, and that made brass prep VERY tedious. That was as fired in M1A match rifles with good chambers. If you bought “surplus once fired” it was generally assumed it was fired in machine guns and you got one less reload. When I went to Perry I always volunteered to pick up any Marine shooters brass (OF Federal Match). I also cultivated friendships with USAR and NG shooters to trade off old brass. They had to turn in their brass in those days, but they didn’t care of it was many times fired. One of my best strings was fired from brass with three reloads.
LC Match and LC LR are very close. I can’t say that any LC match brass would be as good as (?) because some of the lots made in the late 1970s were pretty poor. The cases were decent but not great. The bullets were something else. The”better lots only had an eight or two in a string of 20. That’s why they developed the M852 with the 168 Sierra. Even the Army wouldn’t shoot 118 anymore. When they changed to the M118LR with the 175 Sierra things got way better.
Congratulations on the badge.
Here is a counterpoint. Our across the course targets are very generous in precision perspective. 2 minute 10 ring through 600 does not require 1/4 minute precision rifle, not even a 1/2 minute to do well. A minute capable M1A is more than sufficient.
I agree with you completely. Now we have the AR and that makes the target even bigger. I tell new shooters to focus on standing and stick with basics on reloading.
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