308 FTR - How critical to hit the high node?

[MikeMcCasland]

I've also been using a reamer that cuts 0.342" nk, 1deg30, 0.180 fb"

Those are the *exact* specs of my reamer. Everything else is SAAMI mins. I did hear it's adviseable to open it up .0005 in the case web area to help with extraction, but I haven't run into any issues so far.

Regarding versatility, I saw guy shoot a 598-43x at mid-range this weekend using 155.5s and a .215fb chamber. Figure that one out...

 

[Ned Ludd]

Regarding versatility, I saw guy shoot a 598-43x at mid-range this weekend using 155.5s and a .215fb chamber. Figure that one out...

I *guess* they were either loaded slightly long, or jumped ~1.5".

 

[Ray123]

Hey Guys,

I just got two new 308 rifles built for TR; both 30" bartleins cut from the same .180fb/.342 neck reamer.

I've got a load for both that seemingly hammers with 200.20Xs, and N150. The 'problem' is that I'm only hitting ~2640FPS, however in both rifles it turned in .3" 5-shot groups at 100, and .4" groups on either side of that charge. 2640 appears to be dead center in the middle of a node for me.

Basically, the rifles are freaking hammering at that velocity, and based on what I saw tuning it in, I feel like they're going to continue to do that, with a lot of cushion on either side.


That said, I hear lots of talk at matches about "you gotta be above 2700" (I think most are using Varget to get there). I'm confident that's true for the guys who are seriously a threat to winning state/national titles, but is 'the high node' required to consistently be 580s/90s at 1k?


Every time I've tried to run them up past 2700 (in other .308s) the recoil seems to really increase, whereas I feel its fairly manageable running mid 2600s.


And before anyone tells me, yes I know it's all about the wind. I'm asking about the node though.

Thanks in advance!

I just built a 30" 1-8 twist for a 308 long action, the barrel was for a 300 RUM project but I always wanted to build a long action mag feed .308. So I did ...tried many bullet powder combinations...my results were similar to yours velocity and accuracy wise, with the usual powders. I throated the barrel for 200 grain Sierra MK .715 BC as I have the tools to do the work myself, plus I am a retired machinist with 2 lathes and a Bridgeport mill. I even tried RL 26, Hybrid 100V, but found I could get 2860 fps with power pro 2000mr with a 200 grain bullet. Cartridge overal length 3.175" just off the lands accuracy pretty good but 2830 was better in my barrel. Shooting this in the winter..don"t know about temp sensitivity...this is just for your information, and sharing what I've found. And may be totally discarded by competition & FTR shooters, but it was the fastest powder I found for the .308 win with 200 grain bullets.

 

[BradY]

I don’t think it’s critical at all to hit a high node. It’s critical to find what your rifle wants to shoot. I tried early on with my rifle to shoot 2600-2700 with both h4895 and Varget with 200gr bullets. In the end it’s shown it wants to shoot 2710fps or so and brass life is great. Just a regular 30” bartlein 5r. I do wonder if the 5r barrels make it easier to hit the higher node than the standard cut land groove configuration rifled barrels. A close buddy had two Krieger a tune in mid to low 2600’s with great accuracy. I’m now in a pickle to choose another bartlein or try a Krieger. Not that I want to hit that node, but any advantage, even 2 inches at 1000y is an advantage if the wind call isn’t pinpoint where it needs to be

 

[Ned Ludd]

I don’t think it’s critical at all to hit a high node. It’s critical to find what your rifle wants to shoot. I tried early on with my rifle to shoot 2600-2700 with both h4895 and Varget with 200gr bullets. In the end it’s shown it wants to shoot 2710fps or so and brass life is great. Just a regular 30” bartlein 5r. I do wonder if the 5r barrels make it easier to hit the higher node than the standard cut land groove configuration rifled barrels. A close buddy had two Krieger a tune in mid to low 2600’s with great accuracy. I’m now in a pickle to choose another bartlein or try a Krieger. Not that I want to hit that node, but any advantage, even 2 inches at 1000y is an advantage if the wind call isn’t pinpoint where it needs to be

There are many F-TR shooters that hit the ~2650 fps node with 200s in a 30" barrel using Varget. It definitely shoots. The ~2710 fps range represents the next higher node and some F-TR shooters have had great success using that as well. It also definitely shoots. However, it's probably a bit harder on brass and it most definitely requires better gun handling due to the increased recoil. With equal precision, the extra ~60 fps will buy a small improvement in wind deflection, somewhere around 2" at 1000 yd as you noted.

The most important question is whether that modest improvement in wind deflection is worth the extra recoil. If a given individual doesn't find that it creates additional issues with gun handling and points lost to vertical, it's probably worth it. If they start losing points due to gun handling issues with the faster load, the 2650 fps node is probably the better choice. Both nodes are capable of very good precision, but because of the differences in recoil and gun handling between the two loads, it's up to each individual to decide which works better for them.

 

[BradY]

There are many F-TR shooters that hit the ~2650 fps node with 200s in a 30" barrel using Varget. It definitely shoots. The ~2710 fps range represents the next higher node and some F-TR shooters have had great success using that as well. It also definitely shoots. However, it's probably a bit harder on brass and it most definitely requires better gun handling due to the increased recoil. With equal precision, the extra ~60 fps will buy a small improvement in wind deflection, somewhere around 2" at 1000 yd as you noted.

The most important question is whether that modest improvement in wind deflection is worth the extra recoil. If a given individual doesn't find that it creates additional issues with gun handling and points lost to vertical, it's probably worth it. If they start losing points due to gun handling issues with the faster load, the 2650 fps node is probably the better choice. Both nodes are capable of very good precision, but because of the differences in recoil and gun handling between the two loads, it's up to each individual to decide which works better for them.

Sadly I never found 2620-2680 to produce anything consistent in this barrel. It never tightened up until it got over 2700. First 100 pieces of brass has seen probably 7 firings and primer pockets are fine and cases still extract well too. Got some 200.20x to try out, see if I can make it work like the 200h.

 

[Colnagotex]

I saw the scores from Bayou last weekend and it looks like your load is working pretty good Mike. I’ve only been shooting TR for a couple of seasons but the 2640-2650 speed has worked well for me, but so has 2620, 2690, as well as others. It comes down to what your barrel is most consistent with. I won the TSRA LR Championship in 2018 with a 20x at 2645 +/- and others were shooting much faster than me....I’ve found that speed has worked well in multiple barrels and isn’t hard on components. Just echoing what many others have noted. Shoot what works for you and forget the noise.

JPeel

 

[Medic505]

Shoot what works for you and forget the noise

Best advice ever.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

I saw the scores from Bayou last weekend and it looks like your load is working pretty good Mike. I’ve only been shooting TR for a couple of seasons but the 2640-2650 speed has worked well for me, but so has 2620, 2690, as well as others. It comes down to what your barrel is most consistent with. I won the TSRA LR Championship in 2018 with a 20x at 2645 +/- and others were shooting much faster than me....I’ve found that speed has worked well in multiple barrels and isn’t hard on components. Just echoing what many others have noted. Shoot what works for you and forget the noise.

JPeel

Hey JP - Thanks for weighing in!

This thread is a few months old, and keeps getting bumped for whatever reason. I'll agree with the state & national champions that have posted in here; 2620-2690 and anywhere in between seems to work real well with the 20X. I'd been (informally) shooting open with 6.5s up until getting some purpose built TR rigs smithed-up, but after completing those guns and shooting the 20Xs, I made MR-HM, and LR-M almost immediately.

I feel like I can shoot this combo better than any other in my life, so I'm going to stick right where I'm at. So far it's been enough to make me a halfway legitimate contender; at least for the first two matches of the day.

 

[swadiver]

i have a 28 inch 5R Bartlein and a 30 inch 5R Bartlein .308 for F/TR. i use 200 gr Berger Hybrids, Varget, Lapua Palma brass and CCI BR4's. here at sea level in Florida, velocities for the 28 inch average around 2680 fps and the 30 inch averages around 2695 fps. the brass is on it's 5th firing, primer pockets are still fine. this is a very accurate load that works well out a 1000 yds if i do my part.

 

[Colnagotex]

Hey JP - Thanks for weighing in!

This thread is a few months old, and keeps getting bumped for whatever reason. I'll agree with the state & national champions that have posted in here; 2620-2690 and anywhere in between seems to work real well with the 20X. I'd been (informally) shooting open with 6.5s up until getting some purpose built TR rigs smithed-up, but after completing those guns and shooting the 20Xs, I made MR-HM, and LR-M almost immediately.

I feel like I can shoot this combo better than any other in my life, so I'm going to stick right where I'm at. So far it's been enough to make me a halfway legitimate contender; at least for the first two matches of the day.

Keep up the good shooting!

 

[Belly Benchrester]

43.3 varget with 205 match 2615 fps is where my 30' bartlein likes it. 43.9 n140 and a cci br4 also hammers

 

[coolbox]

I just built a 30" 1-8 twist for a 308 long action, the barrel was for a 300 RUM project but I always wanted to build a long action mag feed .308. So I did ...tried many bullet powder combinations...my results were similar to yours velocity and accuracy wise, with the usual powders. I throated the barrel for 200 grain Sierra MK .715 BC as I have the tools to do the work myself, plus I am a retired machinist with 2 lathes and a Bridgeport mill. I even tried RL 26, Hybrid 100V, but found I could get 2860 fps with power pro 2000mr with a 200 grain bullet. Cartridge overal length 3.175" just off the lands accuracy pretty good but 2830 was better in my barrel. Shooting this in the winter..don"t know about temp sensitivity...this is just for your information, and sharing what I've found. And may be totally discarded by competition & FTR shooters, but it was the fastest powder I found for the .308 win with 200 grain bullets.

I plan to build a tactical 308 on a long action, just to be able to feed the 200.20x loads at over 3.1" COAL with mags. I would like to use Magpul/AI long action mags, or similar. Gunsmith is not so sure about reliability of feeding. Whats your epxerience with these @Ray123 ?

Sorry OP for non related question, but had to ask!

 

[Mike Conroy]

I have earned the hard way, faster is not always better.......

 

[XTR]

I plan to build a tactical 308 on a long action, just to be able to feed the 200.20x loads at over 3.1" COAL with mags. I would like to use Magpul/AI long action mags, or similar. Gunsmith is not so sure about reliability of feeding. Whats your epxerience with these @Ray123 ?

Sorry OP for non related question, but had to ask!

I'm not sure there is much of a point to doing that, though everyone has their own reasons for building what ever it is we build. Not saying don't do it, but...

If you are trying to do that in order to shoot in the PRS tactical class realize that you are limited to max 178gr bullets and max 2800 FPS with any load. If you're not I'm not sure of the reason to build one. For any other application there are better options than the 308 for heavy 30cal bullets.

PRS tactical rules on page 10

I know of at least one person who has build a 308 on a long action to run the Warner Flatline bullets in a mag, never heard that it didn't feed (but it did compete in Open in PRS)

 

[LVLAaron]

Why not build a 300 PRC?

 

[Jay Christopherson]

I think the most critical thing is to hit the X. Whatever load gets you there is where you want to be.

 

[D-4297]

Chasing the High Node works , if you don't mind going through barrels , like changing socks . Lighter bullets can work very well at the high nodes . Any Palma shooter will tell you that . But the key to a accurate .308 is to match the velocity to the barrel , and bullet weight / profile you're shooting , and what that barrel shoots good . Regardless of velocity . I had one barrel that shot high 190's every time with 185 Lapua Scenar's at 2585 - 2610 . Go above that , and it turned to JUNK , in a N.Y. minute . My current barrel shots a quarter-sized group of 155 Sierra's at 100 yrds , at 2865 -2880 . And it wasn't a "designed" load . Just turned out that way . Hotter than I like , and slowing it down didn't change the accuracy . Much . My own testing ; and shooting experiences tells me I can get 1,500 to 2,500 more good rounds out of a barrel at the Low Node , than by trying to chase hypersonic High Node speeds that just shorten barrel life . But hey ! Do what floats your boat on this one . Or just go to a .284 and shoot Open class .