• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

308 Barrel with 1:12 twist, what to use?

All could be true..and I can't argue your facts. It is just those damm 5 inch 10 shot groups at 1k that are doing all of the arguing!!


If it works for you in your circumstances, that's great. It's only sensible though to point out potential pitfalls to others who may obtain very different results and wonder why.

When the 185gn Juggernaut first appeared I did some load development with them in a 1 in 13.5" twist Bartlein in .308 Win in autumn on a range around 900 ft ASL. At 2,825 fps MV, groups were awesome despite a calculated Sg around 1.1. The first long-range match I was able to try them in produced a very different story though with them unable to hold 2-MOA in either plane. The difference? A few weeks, autumn gone and now early winter, a drop in temperature from the 50s F to just under 40. Maybe an atmospheric high-pressure system in place that day too pushing air pressure up. Luckily, I'd anticipated this was a possibility, so had taken some rather more suitable ammunition along and switched over after half a dozen shots.

(Incidentally, that same [Barnard P in an Eliseo tubegun stock] .308 Win rifle shot three consecutive groups in the 4s at 1K in a UK BR Association match with a 1-in 10" Broughton now on with the 185gn Juggernaut load and that despite it being an FTR job with a front-rest riding plate bolted onto the forend tube replacing the bipod. Sadly, in those days we didn't have a Heavy Gun class in the UK, so while it shot a match small group and was second or third on the agg, there was no medal or match place.)
 
Last edited:
Different case-head / bolt face diameters between the pair (308 Win / WSM), so simple rebarrelling isn't an option.

I'm afraid Berger's analysis of the 200gn Hybrid in a 12-inch twist rate barrel isn't exactly promising. 300 extra fps frankly barely improves the Sg value (1.10 to 1.14 when you're looking for values around 1.4, better still 1.5).

The minimum recommended twist rate is 10.3 for this bullet at 2,900 fps MV.

Here's the Berger summary result:

Stability Analysis


Your bullet is MARGINALLY STABLE.
Your bullet stability is marginal. You may shoot good groups under these conditions, but the BC of the bullet will not be optimized.


SG = 1.14
Bullet BC (G7):0.320
Adjusted BC for 1 in 12" Twist: 0.285
Your BC is being compromised by:11%
Minimum Twist Recommended:1 in 10.3"



Ignoring the loss of BC that drops the 200gn Hybrid's superb characteristics in fully stabilised form to around that of the 185gn Juggernaut, such a combination that produces Sg values in the 1.1s is likely to be seriously inconsistent depending on the external environment. It may work at higher altitudes in good summer weather, but fail to to even stabilise bullets and produce groups on another location and in a colder season.

(Incidentally, use of the 200gn Hybrid as opposed to most of the other bullets you're considering isn't just a rifling twist issue. The heavier Hybrids are VERY long bullets and need to have chambers with long freebores to allow the bullet to be seated correctly. For this bullet, COAL will be around the 3-inch mark with the ogive just off the start of the rifling lands.)

So it sounds like sticking with the lighter 155gn is the smart move, considering I live in a 4-season area and I'm only 200 ft above sea level. Different case head is an option, since I haven't bought my new action yet, might also go with a Big Horn, in which case I can just swap out.
 
One thing I didn't consider about using the 155s: will a 24" barrel get me enough velocity to push out to 1,000 yards? I know the 155 palma shooters generally have 30" barrels....
 
A 155gr Palma @ a fairly pedestrian 2800fps using the Litz G7 of 0.237 has 10.1mil drop, 2.8 mil drift, and 1184fps @ 1000yd...assuming 200' ASL, 59F, 29.92" Hg, 0% RH.

Go forth with 8208XBR...
 
I'm gonna go out on a limb here, I'd recommend faster burn rates. Imr 3031 would be great for a light bullet 130ish gr. Long sticks though metering would be poor. H335 for easy metering.

-Mac
 
I'm gonna go out on a limb here, I'd recommend faster burn rates. Imr 3031 would be great for a light bullet 130ish gr. Long sticks though metering would be poor. H335 for easy metering.

-Mac

The faster burn rate might be good for this 24" barrel, since the 155gn palma pullets are normally pushed through a 30" tube. I need to try and get the same speeds with a barrel only 80% as long.
 
The faster burn rate might be good for this 24" barrel, since the 155gn palma pullets are normally pushed through a 30" tube. I need to try and get the same speeds with a barrel only 80% as long.

No way to get equal speeds of longer barrel unless you raise pressure. 155s will be ok, but the 175 should be fine from a 1:12; and BC trumps velocity in long range.
 
I'm running a 1-13" twist 5R Bartlein 31" barrel on my 30/378 Weatherby. 125 grain Hornady SST's and 125 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips run around 4,130 feet per second. 500 yards is about all I can stretch here on my place but anything within that 500 is Come Home To PaPa... I have a 308 win. 1-12" 5R Bartlein that measures 19" plus a Johns Suppressor that works real good with the 150 grain Noslers and the 168 match kings from Sierra.
 
I had a 700 Varmint with a 12 twist, & it shot 190 SMK's just fine.
Agree with Al, 185's-190's work great in a 12 twist,but depending on gun weight recoil "can' be an issue in extended shooting
 
The 175 SMK's were developed to be a 1000 yd. bullet for the M14, keeping it supersonic in a 12 twist 24" barrel, and without high pressures.
 
Last edited:
I sent emails to all the bullet manufacturers asking this exact question on the barrel configuration on my 26" Remington Varmit! The answers were mostly similar a bit vague but informative! Most said that my sweet spot should be between 135gr and 185gr depending on distance and conditions! Each mfg varied the answer slightly but the overlap was close enough to see that our ball park was in the middle, at least for my circumstances! I am just a 100-150 yard paper puncher!
 
I had a 12 twist 26" Remington. I shot the 175 smk at 2650 and made 1000 just fine. I also shot the 185 juggs at the same speed with no pressure whatsoever. I won a factory match with the 155 lapua scenars with 46.5 grs of varget pushing them 2900 but the 175 and 185 were more consistent. The 175 smk was designed for a 12 twist barrel. Super easy to tune and shoots great.
 
The 175 SMK's were developed to be a 1000 yd. bullet for the M14, keeping it supersonic in a 12 twist 24" barrel, and without high pressures.

Only it doesn't in practice! The M118LR is nominally 2,580 fps MV in a 24-inch barrel M24 rifle. Some say though that the US Army places the chronograph 75 ft ahead of the muzzle (very likely); some say 75 yards (very unlikely) to avoid muzzle blast distortion. 2,580 fps at 75ft = 2,625 fps at the muzzle which seems a reasonable 175gn 7.62X51mm NATO loading in a 24-inch barrel bearing in mind that the 7.62's MAP is lower than that of 308 Win and that the ammo has to stay within acceptable pressures in horrendously hot conditions and after very rapid fire leading to high chamber / barrel temperatures.

Bryan Litz's work gives the 175gn Sierra MK an average G7 BC over extended distances of 0.243. Put that into your Berger, Applied Ballistics, JBM etc ballistics program and you get

2,580 fps MV (nominal spec) ............... 1,082 fps at 1K (44 fps below speed of sound); transonic beyond 700 yards.

2,625 fps (more likely MV) ................... 1,103 fps at 1K (23 fps below speed of sound); transonic beyond 825 yards.

2,650 fps (some claim for M118LR) ...... 1,117 fps at 1K (9 fps below speed of sound); transonic beyond 825 yards.

To be sure every shot remains above the speed of sound under standard ballistic conditions with a 40fps MV ES, you need 2,710 fps MV with this bullet.

However, just remaining supersonic is a minimum requirement. Although the 175 SMK is a very well mannered design in the transonic zone compared to many bullets, transonic speeds have been long known to affect every bullet to some degree seeing an increase in both hit dispersion and in the amount it moves in any wind condition.

To get the 175gn SMK to be reliably above transonic speed at 1,000 yards needs an MV of 2,860 fps.
 
Only it doesn't in practice! The M118LR is nominally 2,580 fps MV in a 24-inch barrel M24 rifle. Some say though that the US Army places the chronograph 75 ft ahead of the muzzle (very likely); some say 75 yards (very unlikely) to avoid muzzle blast distortion. 2,580 fps at 75ft = 2,625 fps at the muzzle which seems a reasonable 175gn 7.62X51mm NATO loading in a 24-inch barrel bearing in mind that the 7.62's MAP is lower than that of 308 Win and that the ammo has to stay within acceptable pressures in horrendously hot conditions and after very rapid fire leading to high chamber / barrel temperatures.

Bryan Litz's work gives the 175gn Sierra MK an average G7 BC over extended distances of 0.243. Put that into your Berger, Applied Ballistics, JBM etc ballistics program and you get

2,580 fps MV (nominal spec) ............... 1,082 fps at 1K (44 fps below speed of sound); transonic beyond 700 yards.

2,625 fps (more likely MV) ................... 1,103 fps at 1K (23 fps below speed of sound); transonic beyond 825 yards.

2,650 fps (some claim for M118LR) ...... 1,117 fps at 1K (9 fps below speed of sound); transonic beyond 825 yards.

To be sure every shot remains above the speed of sound under standard ballistic conditions with a 40fps MV ES, you need 2,710 fps MV with this bullet.

However, just remaining supersonic is a minimum requirement. Although the 175 SMK is a very well mannered design in the transonic zone compared to many bullets, transonic speeds have been long known to affect every bullet to some degree seeing an increase in both hit dispersion and in the amount it moves in any wind condition.

To get the 175gn SMK to be reliably above transonic speed at 1,000 yards needs an MV of 2,860 fps.

Or higher ambient temperature, or higher altitude, or lower barometric pressure or... with calculations this close, I think it is an excellent example of differing experiences for details otherwise not noted...

Are you trying to match M118LR, or make your own 'handload'?
 
I hate to encourage pushing the envelope, but if you feel compelled to shoot 1000 yards with a 1:12 twist barrel, the 168 Berger hunting VLD can be pushed to 2900 fps in your barrel by using RL17, and Federal cases (the older ones with the small print on the case head), which have a water capacity of 57.2 grains. The bullet will need to be at about 2.92" OAL for the seating depth, and I would prefer not to jam them into the lands, so check to make sure they don't jam. This will give a comfortable margin on stability. The Sierra MatchKing 175 seated at 2.84-2.88, depending on your lands, also with the same cases and RL17, can give 2850 fps, with good retained velocity at 1000 yards, good stability, and similar wind drift to the Berger 168 hunting VLD. Make absolutely sure you have the Federal cases (or others) with 57.2 grains of water capacity. The current Federal cases with larger print are a carbon copy of the Lake City brass capacity, 54.8 grains of water. The Sierra MatchKings are noted for their ease of load workup and accuracy.
 
Mac, in my first season of GB national FTR shooting, I used a 12-inch twist 24-inch barrel FN SPR and the 175gn SMK over IMR-4064 in Lapua brass. This was early days, no Berger Juggernaut or long-nose tangent ogive bullets. The MVs ended up not much above the M118LR, as the rifle didn't like really hot loads. Back then in the 'oughties' and year 1 of FTR people were writing that the FN SPR and similar were FTR-capable out of the box rifles. Generally, they weren't in truth, or not at least for 900 and 1,000 yards fixtures.

At 1,000, I hit the target often enough, only rarely in the middle though. A long, long time ago, the US Army did extensive tests on the old 173gn FA FMJBT bullet at longer ranges at .30-06 velocities. Their conclusion was that keeping it supersonic was near vital, but also that supersonic plus around 100 fps was also vital at the target, ie ~1,230 fps because of transonic instability and turbulence / increased drag. Drop below that value and group dispersion and wind drift both increased dramatically. That's exactly what I found with the 175gn SMK at some 2,650 fps MV in 900 and 1,000 yards matches. Wind changes that were a half minute for others with ballistically competent kit were doubled, elevations went to pieces etc, etc. In cold days with headwinds, it was obvious that some bullets were dropping below the speed of sound at 1,000 and I was in the trap of some just super and some subsonic, which let me tell you, provides appalling results on the paper. All this was when we used G1 BCs and Sierra tables and suchlike which said the bullet should be doing ~1,225 fps at 1K, so these occurrences were extremely puzzling. Now we have G7s and Bryan Litz's experimentally obtained values and know somewhat better as to what is really happening.

Until I could get a proper FTR rifle and shoot the then new 185 Juggernaut at 2,800 fps plus which I did with some success in FTR year 2, a stop-gap was found with the 190gn SMK and some really stiff Viht N550 loads that produced around 2,575 fps IIRC. I had spoken to the GB 'Match Rifle' shooters who shoot the 308 at up to 1,500 yards and who had found through trial and error over the years that the old 190 and 200gn SMKs were extremely tolerant of transonic speeds and getting into subsonic flight beyond the 950 yard or so mark. (MR shooters now use heavy VLDs and Hybrids like FTR shooters, the old 190/200 way surpassed by more modern designs.)

Yes, I know that hotter climates and high altitude ranges can tip the 175gn SMK back into the supersonic band. It doesn't at Diggle or Blair Atholl in the UK though despite their 1,000ft ASL elevations, but not helped by their having few warm and no hot days in an average year. (It's all relative of course. I shot against the US FTR team at Blair in June 2011 in what was a heatwave for the Scottish Highlands and most of us Brits were uncomfortably hot. I asked Michelle Gallagher how she was finding the weather and her reply was that she felt downright cold not having acclimatised to the Arizona to British Isles switch despite this being about Day 12 for her having shot against the RoI at Tullamore in Ireland in the inaugural revived Creedmoor LR Matches the previous week.)

Don't get me wrong. The 175gn SMK is a fine bullet, and very good value for money. It is very easy to tune in most 308 Win barrels and chambers. It works a treat at 600 yards and suffices at 800, although even at those two distances a higher BC bullet is going to walk all over it these days in FTR competition unless the winds are being very steady. It can give superb precision. My FN SPR 175/4064 combination produced a 0.1" 5-shot group at 100, one of the very few groups I've achieved in the low ones with non-BR rifles over many years and in the days when we still shot UKBRA 300 yard winter season BR matches, it was competitive in the 'Factory Rifle' class. BUT ... it is not a great FTR bullet these days simply because it has been overtaken by so many much more efficient designs with lower 'form factors' and higher BCs, many of which will work very well in a 12-twist barrel. The 175gn Berger Target LR BT is a good example, likewise the Berger 175gn OTM Tactical, and the 185gn Juggernaut which whilst not optimised in a 12-inch twist will still work well enough to win matches. They do everything the old SMK does and a lot more, the only downside being you pay more for the best.
 
I hate to encourage pushing the envelope, but if you feel compelled to shoot 1000 yards with a 1:12 twist barrel, the 168 Berger hunting VLD can be pushed to 2900 fps in your barrel by using RL17, and Federal cases (the older ones with the small print on the case head), which have a water capacity of 57.2 grains. The bullet will need to be at about 2.92" OAL for the seating depth, and I would prefer not to jam them into the lands, so check to make sure they don't jam. This will give a comfortable margin on stability. The Sierra MatchKing 175 seated at 2.84-2.88, depending on your lands, also with the same cases and RL17, can give 2850 fps, with good retained velocity at 1000 yards, good stability, and similar wind drift to the Berger 168 hunting VLD. Make absolutely sure you have the Federal cases (or others) with 57.2 grains of water capacity. The current Federal cases with larger print are a carbon copy of the Lake City brass capacity, 54.8 grains of water. The Sierra MatchKings are noted for their ease of load workup and accuracy.


Much as I would agree on the very high MVs that can be attained by Re17 (aka Nitrochemie Reload Swiss RS60 in the UK and Europe) having tested it extensively with 168-210gn bullets after it first appeared, I got some impressive MVs, but failed to produce a single impressive result in terms of group size.

I wasn't alone in that, many GB FTR shooters trying it out with 185-210 grainers and not a single one using it in competition. Then .. people found out what top end Re17 loads do to chamber throats and barrel life !!
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,786
Messages
2,203,360
Members
79,110
Latest member
miles813
Back
Top