3000 rd accuracy dropoff?

[kzin]

I've had a model1 22lr varmint AR upper with heavy stainless barrel for 9 months or so.

It was very accurate and I've shot it several times a week. I roughly estimate 3000 rds and it could be considerably more. The only rapid fire has been CMP style 10 round targets. No mag dumps at all. 99% standard velocity ammo, mostly wolf match, some eley and center-x.

Accuracy is definitely going down. Seemed to be 9 good shots and 1 flier then 8, getting down to only 2 or 3 good ones in a row now. I've tried to hard blame myself or the ammo but I really believe it is the rifle now.

It's way too early for a heavy(.936 I think) 22lr barrel to just be shot out isn't it?

Will something beyond a normal cleaning help? I brushed the bore moderately with #9 and scrubbed the chamber.

Will a really pristine cleaning of the action make a difference in accuracy of a semi?

thanks

 

[Keith Glasscock]

If I were in your position, Id go whole-hog on cleaning. The only way to know if something like being dirty is hurting it is to get it super clean and find out.

 

[kzin]

If I were in your position, Id go whole-hog on cleaning. The only way to know if something like being dirty is hurting it is to get it super clean and find out.

I don't know what to do bore wise. I've read about actually soaking with solvent?
Any links to procedures that the folks here believe in?

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

I don't know what to do bore wise. I've read about actually soaking with solvent?
Any links to procedures that the folks here believe in?

Have you cleaned it with JB bore paste or ISSO in the first 10" or so of the barrel at the chamber end ? or had it bore-scoped ?
3000 rounds is not significant IMO for a 22 lr barrel. - I have 10/22's that have twice that many down them with a variety of different ammo & they still shoot good. (Volquartson barrel on one & a Green mountain on the other). - Possibly you have some carbon that is stubborn in the barrel. - The guys who shoot ARA BR-50 matches typically get more than 3K and are not contemplating changing barrels and their demands for accuracy from a 22 lr are about as stringent as it comes.

 

[kzin]

Have you cleaned it with JB bore paste or ISSO in the first 10" or so of the barrel at the chamber end ? or had it bore-scoped ?
3000 rounds is not significant IMO for a 22 lr barrel. - I have 10/22's that have twice that many down them with a variety of different ammo & they still shoot good. (Volquartson barrel on one & a Green mountain on the other). - Possibly you have some carbon that is stubborn in the barrel. - The guys who shoot ARA BR-50 matches typically get more than 3K and are not contemplating changing barrels and their demands for accuracy from a 22 lr are about as stringent as it comes.

No, but I actually have some JB that somebody convinced me to buy a year ago on general principles.
Never really understood completely what it was for and decided my new guns didn't need it.
Will definitely add that to the list of things to do.
thanks

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

No, but I actually have some JB that somebody convinced me to buy a year ago on general principles.
Never really understood completely what it was for and decided my new guns didn't need it.
Will definitely add that to the list of things to do.
thanks

The instructions on the container pretty much cover it. - just be sure to mix it really well as it can tend to separate & also has some "lumps" in it. - If you have a bore guide to keep the cleaning rod straight this will help also. - What I do, some refer to as "short stroke" which is work the patch back & forth in short deliberate motions - start at just forward of the lead and work the patch back & forth & slowly progress further down the bore taking care to keep the cleaning rod as straight as possible with the bore & not letting the rod rub on the bore if possible.
- Make sure you saturate the patch well with it. - I put a few drops of Kroil on the patch & then the JB bore paste & work the paste & Kroil into the patch. - I mix the JB with a shish-ka-bob skewer stick that has the sharp tip cut off it.
Then insure you clear the JB from the bore with some clean patches & a few that have some oil on them to pick up any residual residue of JB.

Good Shooting & I hope this helps restore your accuracy back to where it was in the beginning.

- Ron -

 

[kzin]

The instructions on the container pretty much cover it. - just be sure to mix it really well as it can tend to separate & also has some "lumps" in it. - If you have a bore guide to keep the cleaning rod straight this will help also. - What I do, some refer to as "short stroke" which is work the patch back & forth in short deliberate motions - start at just forward of the lead and work the patch back & forth & slowly progress further down the bore taking care to keep the cleaning rod as straight as possible with the bore & not letting the rod rub on the bore if possible.
- Make sure you saturate the patch well with it. - I put a few drops of Kroil on the patch & then the JB bore paste & work the paste & Kroil into the patch. - I mix the JB with a shish-ka-bob skewer stick that has the sharp tip cut off it.
Then insure you clear the JB from the bore with some clean patches & a few that have some oil on them to pick up any residual residue of JB.

Good Shooting & I hope this helps restore your accuracy back to where it was in the beginning.

- Ron -

thanks!

this work for 223 and 22lr uppers?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/9...port-ar-15-556x45mm-nato-223-remington-delrin

 

[velocette]

I've had a model1 22lr varmint AR upper with heavy stainless barrel for 9 months or so.

It was very accurate and I've shot it several times a week. I roughly estimate 3000 rds and it could be considerably more. The only rapid fire has been CMP style 10 round targets. No mag dumps at all. 99% standard velocity ammo, mostly wolf match, some eley and center-x.

Accuracy is definitely going down. Seemed to be 9 good shots and 1 flier then 8, getting down to only 2 or 3 good ones in a row now. I've tried to hard blame myself or the ammo but I really believe it is the rifle now.

It's way too early for a heavy(.936 I think) 22lr barrel to just be shot out isn't it?

Will something beyond a normal cleaning help? I brushed the bore moderately with #9 and scrubbed the chamber.

Will a really pristine cleaning of the action make a difference in accuracy of a semi?

thanks

DO NOT USE ANY ABRASIVE BORE CLEANER OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT!
.22 rimfire barrels are made of much softer steel than high power rifles.
Usual bore life in a .22 rf is well over 50,000 rounds.
Most common problem of poor accuracy is a bore needing cleaning.
The usual bronze brush / solvent / patch works well for the bore.
There is also the problem of a carbon ring right at the chamber mouth where the .22 case ends. This carbon ring
causes flyers, particularly first round flyers.
The ring is removed with application of a bronze brush / solvent and vigorous action. Check with a CLEAN Q tip very gently rubbed back & forth over where the ring is or should be. The ring is usually not removed during regular Replycleaning, only when you address the ring itself.
Next, very carefully examine the muzzle crown for any dents, damage, dings etc. Re-crown as needed.

 

[Bob3700]

DO NOT USE ANY ABRASIVE BORE CLEANER OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT!
.22 rimfire barrels are made of much softer steel than high power rifles.
Usual bore life in a .22 rf is well over 50,000 rounds.
Most common problem of poor accuracy is a bore needing cleaning.
The usual bronze brush / solvent / patch works well for the bore.
There is also the problem of a carbon ring right at the chamber mouth where the .22 case ends. This carbon ring
causes flyers, particularly first round flyers.
The ring is removed with application of a bronze brush / solvent and vigorous action. Check with a CLEAN Q tip very gently rubbed back & forth over where the ring is or should be. The ring is usually not removed during regular Replycleaning, only when you address the ring itself.
Next, very carefully examine the muzzle crown for any dents, damage, dings etc. Re-crown as needed.

velocette, Whoever told you that rimfire barrels are made from softer steel than HP rifles was pulling your leg.

The Chromoly or SS that the bbls for RF and CF are made from are the same material. The SS bbls (314 Stainless) are actually softer steel than the CM. The bore life of a RF bbl is extremely long given care in cleaning.

Agree that the problem is probably a lead ring just at the front of the chamber. Sometimes it actually takes a special cutter to remove that ring. I think that Calfee made one out of brass/bronze to cut that ring without harming the chamber, He may have detailed it in his book on Rimfire accuracy.

 

[USMCDOC]

velocette, Whoever told you that rimfire barrels are made from softer steel than HP rifles was pulling your leg.

The Chromoly or SS that the bbls for RF and CF are made from are the same material. The SS bbls (314 Stainless) are actually softer steel than the CM. The bore life of a RF bbl is extremely long given care in cleaning.

Agree that the problem is probably a lead ring just at the front of the chamber. Sometimes it actually takes a special cutter to remove that ring. I think that Calfee made one out of brass/bronze to cut that ring without harming the chamber, He may have detailed it in his book on Rimfire accuracy.

https://books.google.com/books?id=F...#v=onepage&q=rimfire lead ring cutter&f=false

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

thanks!

this work for 223 and 22lr uppers?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/9...port-ar-15-556x45mm-nato-223-remington-delrin

DO NOT USE ANY ABRASIVE BORE CLEANER OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT!
.22 rimfire barrels are made of much softer steel than high power rifles.
Usual bore life in a .22 rf is well over 50,000 rounds.
Most common problem of poor accuracy is a bore needing cleaning.
The usual bronze brush / solvent / patch works well for the bore.
There is also the problem of a carbon ring right at the chamber mouth where the .22 case ends. This carbon ring
causes flyers, particularly first round flyers.
The ring is removed with application of a bronze brush / solvent and vigorous action. Check with a CLEAN Q tip very gently rubbed back & forth over where the ring is or should be. The ring is usually not removed during regular Replycleaning, only when you address the ring itself.
Next, very carefully examine the muzzle crown for any dents, damage, dings etc. Re-crown as needed.

Lilja uses 416R steel for ALL his stainless steel barrels.

 

[Bob3700]

Lilja uses 416R steel for ALL his stainless steel barrels.

LA50SHOTTER,
I stand corrected, u are correct, bbl material is 416 stainless.

 

[watercam]

https://books.google.com/books?id=FVZobBHiKNoC&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=rimfire+lead+ring+cutter&source=bl&ots=phgYcllS8w&sig=hy0Bmso_nHLCAzDDNgI1cFZr39o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG5KjslJLYAhVC4SYKHbdhAaYQ6AEIPzAH#v=onepage&q=rimfire lead ring cutter&f=false

Interesting. Have certainly experienced the phenomenon with my Rock Creek barrel. My original Winchester barrel (1950s 52C) never seemed to give up accuracy no matter how many rounds went through it before cleaning. The Rock Creek will go a couple of hundred and then fall off gradually until I scrub it.

 

[Outrider27]

The symptoms described fit the carbon ring problem perfectly. Put a wet patch (Hoppe's #9, Kroil, whatever your favorite carbon solvent is) in the chamber/leade area and let it soak well - an hour is ok, overnight is great. Then attack it vigorously with a brush rotated in the chamber and leade. Repeat if necessary (it shouldn't be, but some are stubborn). Normal cleaning, however religious and thorough, won't usually prevent the carbon ring from forming in a 22RF over the long haul (anything over 4-500 rounds).

 

[Tim s]

Since it sounds like you've really not properly cleaned the bore from the get go, compounded by multiple brands that I suspect are without cleaning in between ( you do know you can shoot other stuff after ELEY but not the other way around without cleaning ?)
First, maybe chuck most of the stuff you've been trying and perhaps get a purpose made rimfire solvent like rimfire blend and scrub the bore with a proper bronze brush.
You also probably have a fouled chamber, IOSSO on a tight patch will work.
Lastly, since that platform cannot use a proper bore guide, there is an outside chance you have rod damage that only a borescope can identify.
It is quite easy to hurt a bore and a hell of a lot easier without a guide that fits tightly in a bolt action.

 

[kzin]

thanks all
You're making it sound like the rifle actually shot through my '22s dont need bore cleaning' regimen for an amazingly long time.
I will mend my ways.

How do I check the chamber ring?
If a q-tip run over 6 0'clock comes back clean is that clear that it's gone?

 

[velocette]

When talking about cleaning, it is worthy to consider frequency of cleaning being done by rimfire benchrest shooters and NRA smallbore prone competitors. My club has an active rimfire benchrest group as well as smallbore prone shooters. ALL of them clean their rifles religiously after matches and some do during matches. This is after firing 200 rounds or less with prone shooter or 100 rounds or less with benchrest shooters. (note that the dreaded carbon ring will probably not form with this regular cleaning)
These shooters are all highly competitve, all shooting Anschutz rifles with custom barrels or custom actions with custom barrels, all using Eley Tenex or Lapua Midas + ammo.
What this should be telling you is that if you want top level accuracy from a rimfire rifle, keep the barrel clean.
Also note that with every rimfire rifle I have had experience with, it takes from five to as much as 20 rounds to fully foul the barrel for best accuracy after cleaning.

 

[velocette]

thanks all
You're making it sound like the rifle actually shot through my '22s dont need bore cleaning' regimen for an amazingly long time.
I will mend my ways.

How do I check the chamber ring?
If a q-tip run over 6 0'clock comes back clean is that clear that it's gone?

kzin, the q tip gently being passed through where the carbon ring could be is to FEEL for the slightest roughness. A good light and a dentists mirror will also help to see the ring.

 

[kzin]

kzin, the q tip gently being passed through where the carbon ring could be is to FEEL for the slightest roughness. A good light and a dentists mirror will also help to see the ring.

thanks, that was my second guess.

hadn't thought of the dentist mirror

 

[seymour fish]

If I were in your position, Id go whole-hog on cleaning. The only way to know if something like being dirty is hurting it is to get it super clean and find out.

Zactly ! Have rescued a few with Flitz. Monitoring the placement and development of the Lead ring vs accuracy obtained at each stage is worthwhile