300-Yard F-Class Scoring Question

[Dgd6mm]

I realize that the playing field is level for all competitors but I can't help but think about what the results of these relays could have been if one was able to see the shots as they were being made...





I also realize that this would necessitate a very unlikely rule change.

See the way they show up in your pictures? That is how good they show up at 300 yards with coraplast a foot or so behind the target.

 

[Ned Ludd]

F-Class is High Power or Fulbore Rifle, F-Class is not Benchrest, if you want to shoot on a blue target, shoot Benchrest IMHO.

A discipline that was started so us older guys with bad vision or inability to hold position is why F-Class was started. If you want to see bullet holes use a spotting scope like sling shooters or a more powerful optic on your rifle.

Good luck seeing .22 cal bullet holes in a black NRA target face at 300 yd with any optic other than Hubble if the conditions aren't absolutely perfect and/or the target isn't backlit. Shooting blindly at a target for 20+ shots is ridiculous, which is exactly what it appears people out there are doing simply because their range doesn't have pits.

The underlying idea behind F-Class was meant even more to be one of inclusion, allowing those that perhaps couldn't quite keep pace any longer in conventional shooting to have a home where they could compete. Using a target overlay is a) no advantage; b) the same for every shooter; and c) a way for folks that don't have pits/target carriers at their range to participate.

 

[Toejoe12]

How do you verify/identify cross fires?

 

[TerryH]

See the way they show up in your pictures? That is how good they show up at 300 yards with coraplast a foot or so behind the target.

I have white paper behind them in the pic. Unfortunately the backer board at the range is black. If they could/would change to white then perhaps. I'll certainly ask about a light colored backer of some sort.

 

[TerryH]

How do you verify/identify cross fires?

That is a good question. I have no idea of the answer.

 

[ShootDots]

How do you verify/identify cross fires?

When you are shooting on "PULL" targets, it is difficult enough. When using a "non-pull" situation, the ONLY way is to hope that at least one of the two shooters is not blowing a quarter-sized hole down there and you can SEE if there are either more or less shots on the one. However, if both shooters are killing the X-Ring, it would most certainly be difficult at best to announce one or the other has cross fired!

I just thought of something that COULD happen if you have a "win at any cost cheater". If you had two excellent shooters, shooting on targets right next to each other and they are both blowing quarter sized holes in their targets, one of the shooters, if he is super unethical, could DELIBERATELY shoot a nine on the other person target and claim nothing. Who would be the wiser?

 

[Toejoe12]

When you are shooting on "PULL" targets, it is difficult enough. When using a "non-pull" situation, the ONLY way is to hope that at least one of the two shooters is not blowing a quarter-sized hole down there and you can SEE if there are either more or less shots on the one. However, if both shooters are killing the X-Ring, it would most certainly be difficult at best to announce one or the other has cross fired!

I just thought of something that COULD happen if you have a "win at any cost cheater". If you had two excellent shooters, shooting on targets right next to each other and they are both blowing quarter sized holes in their targets, one of the shooters, if he is super unethical, could DELIBERATELY shoot a nine on the other person target and claim nothing. Who would be the wiser?

I believe your answer is one of several reasons this format will always be "approved" and never a "registered" match by NRA

 

[Taildrag15X]

Good luck seeing .22 cal bullet holes in a black NRA target face at 300 yd with any optic other than Hubble if the conditions aren't absolutely perfect and/or the target isn't backlit. Shooting blindly at a target for 20+ shots is ridiculous, which is exactly what it appears people out there are doing simply because their range doesn't have pits.

The underlying idea behind F-Class was meant even more to be one of inclusion, allowing those that perhaps couldn't quite keep pace any longer in conventional shooting to have a home where they could compete. Using a target overlay is a) no advantage; b) the same for every shooter; and c) a way for folks that don't have pits/target carriers at their range to participate.

I've shot a .223 Rem. at 300 for years, used a Kowa and you're right if the mirage is boiling it's impossible to see bullets even when shooting a Palma Rifle or M1A.

Once F-Class started being fired locally around 2002 or so I was using 20-50x50mm Premier Boosted Leupolds, and again not every hole would be 100% identifiable but I could still see a grouping.

Toejoe12 I'm not sure where you get your information about Registered Tournaments, the NRA allows Walk and Paste/Score on Frame type Matches to be Registered and have for as long as I've been competing, which is getting close to 45 years.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I've also shot .223 Rem at 300 yd for years. Location is key...in some places it is possible to see holes, depending on the conditions and level of spotting scope you have. In others it simply isn't. The real question is whether someone's ability to know where their bullet impacted should be a limiting factor, as opposed to their shooting skill and ability to read the conditions. It's a non-issue at ranges with pits, target carriers and shot/scoring disks. For ranges that don't, I'd much rather see folks participating with the ability to actually see where they're shooting rather than than not, regardless of whether the use of overlay targets is officially approved.

 

[Taildrag15X]

When you are shooting on "PULL" targets, it is difficult enough. When using a "non-pull" situation, the ONLY way is to hope that at least one of the two shooters is not blowing a quarter-sized hole down there and you can SEE if there are either more or less shots on the one. However, if both shooters are killing the X-Ring, it would most certainly be difficult at best to announce one or the other has cross fired!

I just thought of something that COULD happen if you have a "win at any cost cheater". If you had two excellent shooters, shooting on targets right next to each other and they are both blowing quarter sized holes in their targets, one of the shooters, if he is super unethical, could DELIBERATELY shoot a nine on the other person target and claim nothing. Who would be the wiser?

Ben you may not remember at Peru, but the Line was squaded FO, F/TR, FO, F/TR, Sling, Sr, etc...you had no "Class" competitor next to you. To even go farther we had you scored the Target to the Right, so you had no chance of cheating your way to a win in your Class. Crossfires can only be found during the scoring process, we had a simple system, ever target should have 15 shots, so Targets were to show score, number of shots and total, not everyone could count, or as I tried to explain scoring to newbies, subtraction.

 

[ShootDots]

I believe your answer is one of several reasons this format will always be "approved" and never a "registered" match by NRA

That's not quite true.. Or at least it was not true. I set a 15 shot / 300 yard National Record. That can not be done at an "approved" match, only at a "registered" match..

 

[Nowhere Man]

I know the current situation.
My question was if a s&s could be made to an accuracy of dimension that could be used in matches and possibly approved in the future.

Don't hold your breath

 

[JRC92024]

We also use 8" Shoot N See's here in Lake Havasu City. We put them over the 300 yard F Class targets. You get instant target correction just like with the target pullers used at Ben Avery. What's important is that you get shot placement at the time. Gotta be careful peeling them off to score underneath. Besides, you are shooting at the official F Class target. It is no different that spotters used in the pitts. The spotters are overlaid on the target as well.

In San Diego we just leave the backer on the Shoot-n-see then staple it over the "official" target. Makes it easy to remove for scoring. I come to Havasu all the time to visit my in-laws, I guess I'll have to see when you have matches and schedule a trip!

 

[Nowhere Man]

What happens when hits on the SnS don't match up with the F-Class target?

 

[rwj]

Any reason why cameras (ie TargetVision) can’t be used on ranges without pits?

 

[Nowhere Man]

Any reason why cameras (ie TargetVision) can’t be used on ranges without pits?

All competitors must have equal conditions. There's a good chance small holes, ie; 223, 6mm won't show up on a black target backing.

 

[Regnar]

F-Class is High Power or Fulbore Rifle, F-Class is not Benchrest, if you want to shoot on a blue target, shoot Benchrest IMHO.

A discipline that was started so us older guys with bad vision or inability to hold position is why F-Class was started. If you want to see bullet holes use a spotting scope like sling shooters or a more powerful optic on your rifle.

I guess you have never shot 8n Canada

 

[Jacob.A]

Any reason why cameras (ie TargetVision) can’t be used on ranges without pits?

Electronic targets seem like a good option there. My club should be getting our set up in the next month or so, I haven't actually shot on them yet but there's no pit required and the guys that have used them elsewhere really like them. I believe the way we'll be running it will have people in the pit to keep things running smoothly, but they shouldn't be required during a string. I'll have to see if we can't get a writeup posted here for any clubs interesting in taking the same steps.