300 Win Mag Copper Mine

[chomondely3]

Ruger M77 (safety on the tang) 300 Win Mag, possibly a Douglas barrel from the mid 80's.
I am trying to clean out the copper that has accumulated over too many years of inadequate cleaning.
I am using Wipe Out-Patch with a nylon aluminum jag. I would be afraid to look if I had a borescope. Still lots of heavy blue coloring on the patch. At night, I run a dry patch followed by Break Free. Dry patch in the morning shows faint copper residue. Wipe out then shows heavy blue.

In order of abrasiveness, how do you rank the following:
JB Bore Paste
JB non-embedding bore cleaning compound
JB bore bright?

Would it help to use any of these compounds to speed up the process?
Other thoughts on cleaning?

Thanks for your help,
Chomondely

 

[K22]

How does it shoot?

Relative to copper fouling, take a look at the video by gunblue490 entitled, "Cleaning and Solvents" and "How to Clean Your Rifle Professionally" on You Tube.

Relative to general cleaning frequency, take a look at the video by Panhandle Precision on Cleaning a Rifle also on You Tube.

I'm not saying that their assertions are correct - I don't know - but it might be worth while to look at these.

 

[LHSmith]

I use Iosso on a regular basis. I would not try to clean until all trace of copper is gone from a patch without a borescope. No reason not to get a $50 chinese borescope other than being unpatriotic. It will solve the mystery of the unknown of what's going on in there.

 

[Homerange]

This or Sweets

https://shop.kgcoatings.com/kg/product/kg-12-big-bore-cleaner-copper-remover/

 

[FNSafari]

There is a possibility that your barrel is toast. Find someone with a good borescope.

 

[PopCharlie]

Yes, it would help. I believe JB Bore Bright is the most aggressive of the 3 you list. Then JB Bore Paste. I'm not familiar with the non-embedding product.
You should get an inexpensive Bore scope. It will surprise you how bad a "clean" barrel is. It took me 3 days of soaking with Patch Out and a good scrubbing with Bore Bright to clean each of my rifles, after inspecting with a borescope.

PopCharlie

 

[Ksmirk]

I'm a fan of Bore Tech copper remover, it may take a couple of applications but I just clean on the bar at the house, plug in a movie and set the timer..... go at it until I get clean patches.

Kirk

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

BT is no stronger than Wipe Out, if WO isn't getting it out Bore Tech isn't going to work much better. As Popcharlie said I believe JB Bore Paste is the most abrasive on that list but If you can get your hands in some Iosso that the one id start with.

 

[Longtrain]

I just cleaned two very dirty barrels with ThorroClean. Lots of carbon, little to no copper, a tight patch fitted over a worn brush, a la JB, patched out with their flush solution, repeated once. Don’t believe they’ve ever been so clean, borescope clean. It cut my cleaning time by hours.

Butches on a patch to get rid of powder fouling, then the ThorroClean. Clean and done. ThorroClean claims it will clean copper and carbon. I’ve tried them all, C4 Carbon Remover, Wipe-out, Hoppe’s, Butch’s, Sweets 7.62, Montana Extreme, Kroil, etc. Sure they get powder fouling out and their ammonia will attack the copper. The only things IMO that gets out carbon is Isso Paste, JB or ThorroClean, basically an abrasive is needed.

I know cleaning is a religion, this works for me, your magic soup, if it works for you, have at it.

 

[lotech]

The standard JB paste works very well for bad copper fouling and it shouldn't take many strokes to eliminate it. Wipe Out is the best I've found of all the rest, but it may take a number of applications to remove bad copper fouling.

I know it's unpopular nowadays with the fastidious newschoolers, but there is no real need to remove all copper fouling. You'll often see no accuracy improvement by getting down to bare metal and you may find a rifle cleaned in this way doesn't shoot as well as it did with a lightly fouled bore.

 

[Webster]

Ruger M77 (safety on the tang) 300 Win Mag, possibly a Douglas barrel from the mid 80's.
I am trying to clean out the copper that has accumulated over too many years of inadequate cleaning.
I am using Wipe Out-Patch with a nylon aluminum jag. I would be afraid to look if I had a borescope. Still lots of heavy blue coloring on the patch. At night, I run a dry patch followed by Break Free. Dry patch in the morning shows faint copper residue. Wipe out then shows heavy blue.

In order of abrasiveness, how do you rank the following:
JB Bore Paste
JB non-embedding bore cleaning compound
JB bore bright?

Would it help to use any of these compounds to speed up the process?
Other thoughts on cleaning?

Thanks for your help,
Chomondely

A great evaluation of bore cleaners for copper removal. Sweets is very good but harder to find than Butches Bore Bright. Sweets has so much ammonia in it that it will gag you.

 

[K22]

I know it's unpopular nowadays with the fastidious newschoolers, but there is no real need to remove all copper fouling. You'll often see no accuracy improvement by getting down to bare metal and you may find a rifle cleaned in this way doesn't shoot as well as it did with a lightly fouled bore.

I'm starting to believe this. Everything I ever heard and read by respected shooters, advocate removing all the "copper fouling". But is it really fouling or what Elmer Keith called just "copper wash?" I don't know.

For years I used Shooter's Choice only which only moderately removes copper. Never had clean barrel flyers and my rifles shot great. Was totally satisfied with it except for the odor. Wifey developed some sensitivity to the odor so about two years ago I switched to Bore Tech Products because they are odorless.

I use the two part system, C4 Carbon remover w/ bronze brush followed after dry patching with Cu+2 copper remover. I clean every 30 to 40 rounds. I must say these products seem to perform spectacularly. Cu+2 definitely removes the copper - lots of it. However I began developing clean barrel flyers in my after market high grade barrels.

I began to wonder if I'm removing too much copper and thus having to "re-season" the barrel because after a few fouling shots the affected rifles shoot great including cold barrel shots. I don't know if there is such a thing as removing too much copper, just wondering about it.

Thus I launched a research effort to investigate this issue. I stumbled on "gunblue490" videos, specifically the ones addressing "Cleaning and Solvents" and "How to Clean Your Rifle Professionally." Basically he asserts that you don't need to use harsh solvents to remove what he calls "copper plating" and that if cleaned regularly with Hoppe's 9 and a bronze brush that's all that is necessary. He also asserts that copper will not accumulate if cleaned regularly with the aforementioned method. This guy has an impressive resume and quite a following and does not come across as a nut case. He supports his assertion with technical information. A fellow precision shooter (long range varmint hunter) swears by this approach and actually is the one who referred me to gunblue490's YouTube videos.

Whether his claim is true, I don't know. But I plan to test it this summer on one of my varmint rifle to see if I can eliminate the clean barrel flyers and sustain precision using this cleaning method. Also, having a simpler and cheaper method to clean rifles has a high degree of appeal to me.

Before you blast me into another universe, I'm not advocating anything - I just don't know - but I plan to do some testing this summer.

 

[chomondely3]

Thanks for al of the response. Plenty to evaluate. I seem to have most of the copper out, at least enough to push a bullet thru it with enough powder.
I am headed to the range today and we will let the target have a say.

 

[Webster]

I'm starting to believe this. Everything I ever heard and read by respected shooters, advocate removing all the "copper fouling". But is it really fouling or what Elmer Keith called just "copper wash?" I don't know.

For years I used Shooter's Choice only which only moderately removes copper. Never had clean barrel flyers and my rifles shot great. Was totally satisfied with it except for the odor. Wifey developed some sensitivity to the odor so about two years ago I switched to Bore Tech Products because they are odorless.

I use the two part system, C4 Carbon remover w/ bronze brush followed after dry patching with Cu+2 copper remover. I clean every 30 to 40 rounds. I must say these products seem to perform spectacularly. Cu+2 definitely removes the copper - lots of it. However I began developing clean barrel flyers in my after market high grade barrels.

I began to wonder if I'm removing too much copper and thus having to "re-season" the barrel because after a few fouling shots the affected rifles shoot great including cold barrel shots. I don't know if there is such a thing as removing too much copper, just wondering about it.

Thus I launched a research effort to investigate this issue. I stumbled on "gunblue490" videos, specifically the ones addressing "Cleaning and Solvents" and "How to Clean Your Rifle Professionally." Basically he asserts that you don't need to use harsh solvents to remove what he calls "copper plating" and that if cleaned regularly with Hoppe's 9 and a bronze brush that's all that is necessary. He also asserts that copper will not accumulate if cleaned regularly with the aforementioned method. This guy has an impressive resume and quite a following and does not come across as a nut case. He supports his assertion with technical information. A fellow precision shooter (long range varmint hunter) swears by this approach and actually is the one who referred me to gunblue490's YouTube videos.

Whether his claim is true, I don't know. But I plan to test it this summer on one of my varmint rifle to see if I can eliminate the clean barrel flyers and sustain precision using this cleaning method. Also, having a simpler and cheaper method to clean rifles has a high degree of appeal to me.

Before you blast me into another universe, I'm not advocating anything - I just don't know - but I plan to do some testing this summer.

Wash is just a made up term. There is only one source of copper in the bore. Fouling just means it is in the bore and is not easily removed.

 

[lotech]

About thirty-five years ago, I was given of tour of Shilen's barrel shop by Mr. Shilen. It seems everybody at that time was using Shooter's Choice for general bore cleaning and copper removal. Mr. Shilen said it worked very well, but was slow, usually overnight slow. By comparison with many copper solvents we have today, it is slow. Regardless, Ed Shilen said that many shooters think it necessary to remove all the copper fouling in a bore. He further stated there was no need for such if a gun was shooting well.

Granted there are many more products available today for bore cleaning and copper removal than there were years ago, but I think Mr. Shilen's advice remains valid.

I'm not a YouTube fan for advice on such matters, but there may be a limited amount of good information available. Unless you've had a good deal of experience dealing with this topic, I think it would be difficult to differentiate between good advice and advice from a YouTube expert.

 

[K22]

About thirty-five years ago, I was given of tour of Shilen's barrel shop by Mr. Shilen. It seems everybody at that time was using Shooter's Choice for general bore cleaning and copper removal. Mr. Shilen said it worked very well, but was slow, usually overnight slow. By comparison with many copper solvents we have today, it is slow. Regardless, Ed Shilen said that many shooters think it necessary to remove all the copper fouling in a bore. He further stated there was no need for such if a gun was shooting well.

Granted there are many more products available today for bore cleaning and copper removal than there were years ago, but I think Mr. Shilen's advice remains valid.

I'm not a YouTube fan for advice on such matters, but there may be a limited amount of good information available. Unless you've had a good deal of experience dealing with this topic, I think it would be difficult to differentiate between good advice and advice from a YouTube expert.

I totally agree with your assessment on YouTube advice. I merely did a search and watched about 30 or so video's on the subject. The variation in opinions ranged widely - some backed by technical data some merely "supposition" without backup. Viewers beware certainly applies.

My purpose was to just gather information, sort though it and contemplate it. I'm not advocating anything because I really don't know other than what I've experienced with my rifles and my procedure for my purposes.

I don't think there is any debate about the need to removed carbon fouling. I didn't believe there was any debate about removing copper fouling either until I started getting clean barrel flyers using a really effective copper remover, i.e. Bore Tech Cu+2. That's what got me started on a quest to find out why when I never experienced it before using Shooter's Choice for about 25 years or so. Before that it was old Hoppe's 9 because that's what my father and grandfather used but they are only deer and beer hunters, not long range precision varmint hunters which is a different game requiring much more precision.

There may be some value to leaving the barrel "seasoned" with copper during in season use and using a method of "minimal disturbance cleaning" - translation - just removing the carbon fouling and some copper fouling using Hoppe's 9 or Shooter Choice with a bronze brush then doing a complete copper removal at the end of the season to prevent build up over extended shooting seasons. I don't know if this has any merit at all but I'm going to test it this summer with one of my varmint rifles and see if I can make the clean barrel flyers disappear.

In the end, each shooter has to decide what works best for him and his applications. All I want to do is cleanly take a ground hog out to 300 yards and not have to go to the range after I clean a rifle to shoot fouling shots to verify I'm on zero. i.e. my standards are quite modest.

PS: The reason I moved away from Shooter's Choice was because the odor was bothering wifey. Other than that I was completely satisfied with in from a performance on target standpoint.

 

[WVRJ]

I have a 300 Win Mag that is also a copper mine.I also have some other rifles that get a lot of copper fouling.The first thing I do is fill the bore with Gunslick foaming bore cleaner and shove a jag and patch up in the chamber to keep it in the bore only.I leave it in there for half an hour.This does a great job of loosening things up.I pull the plug out of the chamber and run a couple dry patches through it to get ready for the next step,which is a bronze brush soaked with Butches Bore Shine.I get it wet and go in and out 3 times.Next,I spray the brush off with brake clean,soak it up with Butch's and run it through 5 times.Clean the brush again,soak it again with Butch's and run it in and out 10 times.Every 15 minutes or so I clean the brush,wet it again and run it through 3 times.This seems to give the Butch's a little boost,and keeping the bore wet with butch's and brushing it a little bit a few minutes apart also seems to help.After that,I run a few patches with Butch's on them until they come out clean,which usually after the third or fourth one,they come out clean.I've confirmed the results with a very high dollar bore scope,and I've been using this method for the last 11 years on hundreds of barrels and it works.I don't think there's any method that doesn't take a little time and effort.I also think I get better results from spraying the brush off with brake cleaner.A shooting buddy of mine asked me why I put so much effort into cleaning a barrel and kept shoving a filthy brush in it.After I get one clean,I run a lightly oiled patch through it to keep it from rusting.A lot of shooters have problems with the cold bore shot not hitting in the group.Clean the barrel with something that's good for the carbon a little bit before you're going to shoot and you'll most likely notice the "cold bore" shot is really caused by oxidized carbon powder fouling,which is dry and abrasive and tends to raise pressures thanks to increased drag in the bore.Are any of my theories correct?Just how smart is a snuff dipping hillbilly in bib overalls with a mountain twang?

 

[lotech]

Carbon fouling is very different from copper fouling. I've tried many carbon removal products. None of them work if the carbon has been neglected for a while. In that case, JB Paste, used according to directions, works pretty well. It will also easily remove copper fouling. Whether JB does harm to a bore over time, I really don't know, so I use it sparingly as I've done for many years.

I can recall one carbon fouling incident where all or most of it was removed using JB Paste. I have a Cooper .270 that I was working up loads for about ten or more years ago. It was very accurate with many bullets and I tried many, along with a number of powders. After about 500 rounds or so, my borescope showed significant carbon fouling, but the rifle was still shooting well. I removed the carbon. It took a dozen or so rounds before it would shoot accurately again. Barrel maker Dan Lilja mentioned something about this very thing some time ago. Like copper fouling, there is little need to remove all the carbon.