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300 Ham'r vs 300BO sub/supersonic?

mattri

Silver $$ Contributor
Looking at these two rounds for a build based on a bolt action with a 223 bolt, 18" barrel.

Would like to be able to run both sub and supersonic loads.

It seems the 300 BO is usually based around a 1:7 or similar rate for the longer bullets used for sub loads, and the 300 Ham'r is based around a slower 1:13-15 barrel for the 110-130gr bullets- both often with short barrels.

Would a 1:10 Ham'r be a good middle ground? Stabalize 190/208gr range bullets for sub loads but not over spin lighter bullets and adversely affect accuracy?

Rifle will be for a VFS type class, multi position at 100-200 yards so accuracy trumps a little velocity.

Thoughts?
 
I believe you’ll need faster than 1:10 for the heavies you intend to shoot subsonic.

Berger calculator might be a good option for you.
 
The 300 Ham'R is designed to be supersonic. The 300 Blackout is designed to be subsonic. Both will do an excellent job of doing what they were designed for. I have done 15 twist Ham'r barrels and 8 and even 5 twist Blackout barrels. Pick one and enjoy. If one would do everything we wouldn't have them both.
 
Thanks for the replies.

Agreed that the Ham'r is designed for supersonic as stated- just as the 308 and many others are that can also be used for subs.

Should have been more clear sorry- how does one make the Ham'r effective for both?
 
I love the 300BLK, but IMHO the only place it really shines is in a semi-auto, short barreled, suppressed platform with subsonic loads. It works great if you want to combine sub and super. For super only, many other better options. If I was shooting super only, would consider the 300 HAM'R. Or even 7.62x39 for cheap ammo.
 
Thanks for the replies.

Agreed that the Ham'r is designed for supersonic as stated- just as the 308 and many others are that can also be used for subs.

Should have been more clear sorry- how does one make the Ham'r effective for both?
There is always a solution, depends on the goals and expectations.

Since you’re starting with a bolt action 90% of the problems are solved, you have kind of already stepped outside the box.

You need to decide which is more important, subs or supers. Build it to excel at one and accept what you get with the other. Since you don’t have to worry about powders and pressures that will cycle the action, any bullet choice can be shot subsonic, as long as the twist is fast enough.

The problem with the 300 Blackout and Ham’r is using it in an AR robs potential due to magazine length restrictions. So the first thing you will want to do is either single feed or set it up to use an AICS magazine. This will allow a loaded length of 2.550” + in a magazine. This will allow velocities will allow you to be competitive, with either cartridge.

Consider a Hornady 250 grain Atip in a 300 Blackout.o_O
4FF87B35-76A8-489B-91B8-C21C1F2DC71A.jpeg
One is loaded to 2.260” for AR magazine length, the other at 2.585”, where it hits the lands. The 2.585” round will feed from an AI magazine. The differences in powder capacity and velocity is about 700 fps.

6DC2F707-BB2F-40B5-8F9E-A1A34D218F75.jpeg
Depending on powder choice at 2.226” all you can fit is about 2-5 grains.

The other problem with the Ham’r and magazine length restrictions is what happens with a long bullet and not enough room between the end of the neck and the magazine. Here is that same Atip loaded at 2.226”, note the .308” portion of the bullet is below the neck line. This is why if you want to shoot long heavy bullets in the Ham’r, you might want to consider AI magazines. You will also be able to load them long enough to get enough powder to make it worthwhile.
58B88930-C548-4AAE-8640-68E8ADBFDBAF.jpeg
This will also come into play with lighter bullets that have a longer length like the 115 Berger. You can’t load the Berger with out the base of the bullet below the neck in the Ham’r at 2.226”. Ditching the AR mag will change both cartridges potential dramatically.

A 208 Amax does fine in a 1/10 out to about 300 yards, but remember, since its a bolt action, weight is not really a factor, 85 grain subs function just as well.

Case capacity is an issue. The Ham’r will provide more velocity for supers, the Blackout will be easier to tune for subs, where excess case capacity works against you for accuracy.

The velocity gain from the Ham’r for 2-300 yards probably isn’t the deciding factor with lighter bullets. It would be fun to see what you could sneak out of one with something like a 175 SMK, where 150-200 fps makes a difference.
 
Excellent information thanks!

The rifle has an internal mag so will be somewhat limited but should still be able to seat out to around 2.360".
 
There is always a solution, depends on the goals and expectations.

Since you’re starting with a bolt action 90% of the problems are solved, you have kind of already stepped outside the box.

You need to decide which is more important, subs or supers. Build it to excel at one and accept what you get with the other. Since you don’t have to worry about powders and pressures that will cycle the action, any bullet choice can be shot subsonic, as long as the twist is fast enough.

The problem with the 300 Blackout and Ham’r is using it in an AR robs potential due to magazine length restrictions. So the first thing you will want to do is either single feed or set it up to use an AICS magazine. This will allow a loaded length of 2.550” + in a magazine. This will allow velocities will allow you to be competitive, with either cartridge.

Consider a Hornady 250 grain Atip in a 300 Blackout.o_O
View attachment 1295190
One is loaded to 2.260” for AR magazine length, the other at 2.585”, where it hits the lands. The 2.585” round will feed from an AI magazine. The differences in powder capacity and velocity is about 700 fps.

View attachment 1295193
Depending on powder choice at 2.226” all you can fit is about 2-5 grains.

The other problem with the Ham’r and magazine length restrictions is what happens with a long bullet and not enough room between the end of the neck and the magazine. Here is that same Atip loaded at 2.226”, note the .308” portion of the bullet is below the neck line. This is why if you want to shoot long heavy bullets in the Ham’r, you might want to consider AI magazines. You will also be able to load them long enough to get enough powder to make it worthwhile.
View attachment 1295202
This will also come into play with lighter bullets that have a longer length like the 115 Berger. You can’t load the Berger with out the base of the bullet below the neck in the Ham’r at 2.226”. Ditching the AR mag will change both cartridges potential dramatically.

A 208 Amax does fine in a 1/10 out to about 300 yards, but remember, since its a bolt action, weight is not really a factor, 85 grain subs function just as well.

Case capacity is an issue. The Ham’r will provide more velocity for supers, the Blackout will be easier to tune for subs, where excess case capacity works against you for accuracy.

The velocity gain from the Ham’r for 2-300 yards probably isn’t the deciding factor with lighter bullets. It would be fun to see what you could sneak out of one with something like a 175 SMK, where 150-200 fps makes a difference.
Will the Atips expand on deer size game subsonic?
 
30BR, 7.62x39 etc are certainly viable options but as it stands the rifle has a 223 boltface and an internal mag well set up for the same, seems doable to stick to that cartridge family.

The 300BO is well suited for subsonic use- and at the same time many people have used it very successfully with supersonic loads for various purposes.

How do we do the same (in the opposite direction) thing with the 300 Ham'r- take a round that works with super loads and set a rifle up so that it can effectively use sub loads as well?

Or, realistically do we accomplish the same thing with the 300 BO itself. I'm not married to either round by any means- it just seems that if we can go one way we may be able to go the other as well. Maybe a 300 BO out of a bolt action with an 18" barrel will accomplish the accuracy goals with both- 100% open to suggestions.

FWIW cast bullets are on the table for subs so making weight with a shoter OAL is conceivable but not necessary.

Thanks for the input guys appreciate the tips.
 
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I have never seen a first hand account of over-stabilization harming precision, outside of benchrest type ultra-precision games. I think you shouldn't worry about that.

300Ham'r, the uppity younger sibling of 7.64x40WT, is an easy choice for a wide range of velocities, since you aren't running a gas system. With a gas system, I find it to have a troublesomely narrow operating window.

It will definitely throw a light .30 faster than the Blackout.
 
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30BR, 7.62x39 etc are certainly viable options but as it stands the rifle has a 223 boltface and an internal mag well set up for the same, seems doable to stick to that cartridge family.

The 300BO is well suited for subsonic use- and at the same time many people have used it very successfully with supersonic loads for various purposes.

How do we do the same (in the opposite direction) thing with the 300 Ham'r- take a round that works with super loads and set a rifle up so that it can effectively use sub loads as well?

Or, realistically do we accomplish the same thing with the 300 BO itself. I'm not married to either round by any means- it just seems that if we can go one way we may be able to go the other as well. Maybe a 300 BO out of a bolt action with an 18" barrel will accomplish the accuracy goals with both- 100% open to suggestions.

FWIW cast bullets are on the table for subs so making weight with a shoter OAL is conceivable but not necessary.

Thanks for the input guys appreciate the tips.
The Ham’r for subs has some logistical problems for subs and heavy bullets. It just didn’t work out too well in the accuracy department when more of the bullet is below the neck, than outside the case. It’s not that it can’t be done, but if you want sub MOA groups, it will take a lot of work. You would be better off with a lighter shorter bullet, That in itself isn’t a problem but, the larger the case capacity, the harder the ES/SD numbers are to control. High spreads lead to huge vertical strings even at distances as short as 100 yards.

Neither round is designed for high levels of precision. They flop around in the chambers like a fish out of water, generally have jumps that out Weatherby to shame, and don’t really have a shoulder. Half MOA is reasonably easy, 1/2 MOA takes work, 1/4 MOA is possible but mostly the stuff dreams are made of. That’s coming from someone who is often called a fan boy of the cartridge.

If you have a reamer made that takes out a bit of the taper in the case, tighten the neck so you only have .003” clearance instead of .008-.010” you almost have a useful shoulder to guide the round, it starts to get interesting.

It just depends on your expectations.

Twist rates don’t matter much between 6-11. I have a 24” 1/6 and a 24” 1/10. The 1/10 is much easier to tune supers, but subs longer than a 208 Amax are not real stable enough for serious target work A 175 SMK will be sub MOA at 200 yards at 1000 FPS or 2200 FPS.
A 1/5 twist is great for subs, but a waste for supers in anything longer than an 8” barrel. At 2200 FPS Bullets are over 300,000 rpm and a lot of them start coming apart unless they are solids.

My 12” Model 7, shoots under 1/2 MOA pretty consistent with 150 grain Gold Dots at 2180 FPS. With a 1/10 twist.

There are so many variables that you just can’t make anything but broad statements until you define exactly what you want to do, and balance that against trying to have two rifles in one.
 
30BR, 7.62x39 etc are certainly viable options but as it stands the rifle has a 223 boltface and an internal mag well set up for the same, seems doable to stick to that cartridge family.

The 300BO is well suited for subsonic use- and at the same time many people have used it very successfully with supersonic loads for various purposes.

How do we do the same (in the opposite direction) thing with the 300 Ham'r- take a round that works with super loads and set a rifle up so that it can effectively use sub loads as well?

Or, realistically do we accomplish the same thing with the 300 BO itself. I'm not married to either round by any means- it just seems that if we can go one way we may be able to go the other as well. Maybe a 300 BO out of a bolt action with an 18" barrel will accomplish the accuracy goals with both- 100% open to suggestions.

FWIW cast bullets are on the table for subs so making weight with a shoter OAL is conceivable but not necessary.

Thanks for the input guys appreciate the tips.
Don’t know if you are interested but a 6x45 might be fun since you have the .384 bolt face. It doesn’t shoot sub sonic but would be interesting . 6mm vs .308 diameter. I have a.300 blk in an AR platform and like it but I will be building a 6x45 next.
 
Ok, that's fair.

So accuracy requirement would be reasonable- 1/2 moa @ 100 and 200 supersonic- that is by no means unrealistic.

Subsonic 1 moa @ 50 and 100.
 
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6x45 sounds like an interesting round for sure- will be using a .30 for the scoring advantage and the heavier bullets for sub loads.
 
Yeah like a few others it looks like a great round- are ppl shooting them sub and super- if so what barrel configuration?
 
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Any thing can be shot subsonic with the right powder choice, Trail Boss is your friend for large cases, Tin Star for small.

Back to heavy bullets (all bullets actually), and this will apply to anything you choose, but the distance from case neck to magazine wall is critical.

If you look at the Ham'r. The case length is 1.600" your max loaded length is 2.360"
2.360-1.600= .760" left outside the neck for a nose.

Berger bullets is about the only one who publishes theur bullet specs. if you look that will eliminate about half of their line of bullets for use in the Ham'r with your extended mag length. Unless you don't mind the bullet ogive sitting below the neck line like in the pic of the Atip.

If you were limited to AR mag length, it would eliminate every bullet they make. An AR magazine only allows .626".

The Hornady ELD 208's are another good example, because of the difference in nose profile of the M and X bullet, one can be used, the other measures .303 at the neck line seated at 2.360".

So the one ELD(i think the M) will will have a jump from neck to lands of a 1/4" or more, if it will feed. You could trim the neck back until it fits the bullet, but that won't change the jump.

The other, ELD X, ( I might have these backwards), might actually hit the lands at 2.360", good thing that there is plenty of bearing surface on that one, you can shorten the COL.

Someone mentioned the Wilson 7.62X40 earlier, that might be a better choice of splitting the middle of the two cartridges, because it does.
 

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