I'm intrigued by that Cerus stock. If I was building something this nice and wanted to magazine load, I'd also go with the Norma.
Please post pics when it's done.
Please post pics when it's done.
30 Nosler and 240gr Sierra's...1 mile?
- Thread starter ISS
- Start date
I placed 12th at KO2M in 2023. A 30 cal is a waste of time at KO2M. It would almost be like taking a 22 rimfire to a FTR match. You will be so over gunned as far as BC / Velocity that getting past the first round will be VERY tough- but stranger things have happened.
Good luck and have fun.
I have a 338lm, going 300nm was less recoil and cheaper bullets. If his goal is to win it, I agree, go bigger. For a fun, excellent longrange setup, 300nm is great.
I looked up 2023, a 37xc took 3rd(awesome). A lot of 375 cheytacs and 416 Barrets.
ISS
Gold $$ Contributor
Heck gentlemen, based on your logic I should build a 375 Chey-Tac and use the new Berger 379(?)gr bullets or just jump to a 416 Barret or a 50 BMG.
The Armed Forces spent a lot of time and money getting away from the 338 Lapua and adopting the 300 Norma Magnum to kill enemy forces at extreme distances just a few years ago.
I'm almost 76, and the clock is ticking. Next year will probably be my only chance.
If I do not make it, I will have probably the finest long range Rockchuck hunting machine I have ever owned. And, that will be enough for this old RVN Army Sgt Airborne Ranger.
Sua Sponte (Rangers lead the way...)
The Armed Forces spent a lot of time and money getting away from the 338 Lapua and adopting the 300 Norma Magnum to kill enemy forces at extreme distances just a few years ago.
I'm almost 76, and the clock is ticking. Next year will probably be my only chance.
If I do not make it, I will have probably the finest long range Rockchuck hunting machine I have ever owned. And, that will be enough for this old RVN Army Sgt Airborne Ranger.
Sua Sponte (Rangers lead the way...)
I did the ballistics on a 37xc vs a 300nm. Closer than I would have guessed, except for energy. I gave the 300nm a long barrel. The 37xc was info from a 33" barrel.
The 375 Chey Tac with Berger 410's is a great option. I shot a 416 Barret in 2023, that is the direction I would lean if I were you. Check to be sure you can get Peterson brass for it, and if so, go for it.
You might want to check out the Barret MRAD ELR chambered in 416 Barret.
Congrats on that match result, but check your 6 on that BC/Velocity thing.
First, average BC/Velocity is a second order problem. There are minimum requirements, but more isn't better if it starts cutting into the first order problem, BC/Velocity spreads.
Second, the highest score I'm aware of on the KO2M last target was shot with a straight 375CT and 400 grain Lazers. ~2950fps and a .450 G7 with a 34-36" barrel. Does that make it the best one to use? No, but it certainly suggests that it's adequate. The 30 caliber version of a 375CT is the 300 Lapua. I shoot that one at 2950 fps and a 250 ATip with a .450 G7.
These are the stats from a local match. The velocity migration within a string isn't bad, but after 500 rounds it's up 50 fps from just after break in. I know from experience that after that, the vertical will soon open up beyond 2000 yards. So why isn't this setup more popular at KO2M? First, 30 cals are denied admission. Second, that velocity spread is about half again what a 375CT/400 Lazer combo will do with H50 and a 215M. Even with a fresh barrel, the BC spread also will be 2-3 times the Lazer. It will not actually score with the Cheytac beyond 3000 yards. Inside of 2500, it'll certainly leave a mark though.
Third, let's go back to the KO2M. It's 2016 and AB's Fitzpatrick wins the match with a mega 375 shooting solids developed for maximum BC / minimum BC spread that are not available to the public. Yay! Berger is positioned to enter the solid market with a big splash. What most didn't notice is while Litz took second place with a 338 Edge and 300 grain Hybrids, the 338 outscored the 375 on the longer targets. The 338 Edge has a slight, but insignificant, ballistic disadvantage to the 300 Norma. There are better 30 caliber bullets than the 338 300 grain hybrid these days.
What I took away from that example was a lower performance / longer barrel life practice rifle was a good idea. It gives you more practice time and something to do while the other rifle is cooling down. It also provides harsh feedback on just how little is gained from cartridges with half the barrel life. When the big cartridge won't outscore the practice gun, it's past time for a fresh barrel. My first ELR practice gun was a 7/270WSM shooting blem 180 grain ELDm. These days, I'm experimenting with factory guns. We've come a long ways since 2016, particularly on the optics.
These are the stats for a 300PRC with a 230ATip. It still has the Ruger barrel. I don't have any full match stats uploaded, but the 32" Barlein barreled 300 Lapua will only outscore it by 1 more hit in 10 on a 37" target at 2100 yards. Far enough out, when the RMS error budget curves are steep enough, the scoring differences open up. Those distances are far enough, that the number of hours in a year that the conditions are suitable for shooting those ranges are dropping faster than the barrel life.
The point of all this is the 7rsaum guys are on to something for a hobbyist ELR setup and until velocity spread and the barrels contribution to BC variation are understood, taking elevation out of the turret won't do a bit of good. Wind is on you.
I think going from 1 to 2 miles was a serious case of mission creep. A Ranger should know there is more to it than the equipment.
The first thing to recognize about any real sniping setup is they use issue ammo. That's the worst case for the error budgets I posted. It seriously limits the hit percentage at longer ranges. The 300WM was used instead of the 338 Lapua because the performance of a 250 grain Lapua load that'll fit in an AICS CIP magazine just isn't all that. They also wanted to use their existing R700 actions which don't work very well with CIP magazines. They came up with their own AICS magazine length that's longer the AI's 300WM but shorter than CIP. The 300 Norma became feasible when they switched to a platform that allowed barrel changes at the user level. I'm guessing at any given point in time, more of them will have the 338 Norma barrel installed because the ammo choices are more flexible.
It'll tear up a silhouette at 1 mile, enjoy that while you master the ammo side. If you keep an open mind, a mile is far enough to recognize the sacred cows that'll need to be butchered to improve scores or shoot further.
I concur
A huge difference between a mile and two miles.
With the smaller calibers you really need great conditions to be even remotely consistent And you need really consistent bullets along with the load.
For cup/core the Berger LRHT’s are my favorites for ELR with the little guys.
If you have a decent combination it’s quite fun.
My 338 Edge has a pretty significant ballistics advantage(not shooting 300 Berger’s) to the regular 300NM but in a competition out to say a mile I’d probably take my 7 saum or a 300NM.Congrats on that match result, but check your 6 on that BC/Velocity thing.
First, average BC/Velocity is a second order problem. There are minimum requirements, but more isn't better if it starts cutting into the first order problem, BC/Velocity spreads.
Second, the highest score I'm aware of on the KO2M last target was shot with a straight 375CT and 400 grain Lazers. ~2950fps and a .450 G7 with a 34-36" barrel. Does that make it the best one to use? No, but it certainly suggests that it's adequate. The 30 caliber version of a 375CT is the 300 Lapua. I shoot that one at 2950 fps and a 250 ATip with a .450 G7.
These are the stats from a local match. The velocity migration within a string isn't bad, but after 500 rounds it's up 50 fps from just after break in. I know from experience that after that, the vertical will soon open up beyond 2000 yards. So why isn't this setup more popular at KO2M? First, 30 cals are denied admission. Second, that velocity spread is about half again what a 375CT/400 Lazer combo will do with H50 and a 215M. Even with a fresh barrel, the BC spread also will be 2-3 times the Lazer. It will not actually score with the Cheytac beyond 3000 yards. Inside of 2500, it'll certainly leave a mark though.
Third, let's go back to the KO2M. It's 2016 and AB's Fitzpatrick wins the match with a mega 375 shooting solids developed for maximum BC / minimum BC spread that are not available to the public. Yay! Berger is positioned to enter the solid market with a big splash. What most didn't notice is while Litz took second place with a 338 Edge and 300 grain Hybrids, the 338 outscored the 375 on the longer targets. The 338 Edge has a slight, but insignificant, ballistic disadvantage to the 300 Norma. There are better 30 caliber bullets than the 338 300 grain hybrid these days.
What I took away from that example was a lower performance / longer barrel life practice rifle was a good idea. It gives you more practice time and something to do while the other rifle is cooling down. It also provides harsh feedback on just how little is gained from cartridges with half the barrel life. When the big cartridge won't outscore the practice gun, it's past time for a fresh barrel. My first ELR practice gun was a 7/270WSM shooting blem 180 grain ELDm. These days, I'm experimenting with factory guns. We've come a long ways since 2016, particularly on the optics.
These are the stats for a 300PRC with a 230ATip. It still has the Ruger barrel. I don't have any full match stats uploaded, but the 32" Barlein barreled 300 Lapua will only outscore it by 1 more hit in 10 on a 37" target at 2100 yards. Far enough out, when the RMS error budget curves are steep enough, the scoring differences open up. Those distances are far enough, that the number of hours in a year that the conditions are suitable for shooting those ranges are dropping faster than the barrel life.
The point of all this is the 7rsaum guys are on to something for a hobbyist ELR setup and until velocity spread and the barrels contribution to BC variation are understood, taking elevation out of the turret won't do a bit of good. Wind is on you.
Im slowly building a 375, it won’t really beat my 338 edge now in ballistics but splash and impact observation becomes a big deal as well as consistent ES and BC when most scopes are well out of elevation
I prefer the ATips to anything with hollow point construction. Length sorting doesn't take long, but it leaves a series of BCs to deal with. OK for games with sighters, but not so much if first round hits carry extra weight. Trimming and/or pointing have their issues as well. I recommend the ATips for beginners because they can be used with good results out of the box. If they want to use them as the baseline to test against, great. At least they'll be in a solid starting spot in a game where 1 bad decision makes it all fall apart. I see the ATips at the top of plenty of ELR matches. Primarily light gun with the 33XC.
Even if you can load ammo to the Advanced level, there are a host of fine motor skills and mental strategies that only come with practice. ELR is a game of chronic information shortages. Carrying information forward from target to target or from your teammates takes practice. It's also cheaper to learn to load great ammo with smaller cartridges. Reloading equipment is similar to the guns and optics. You don't just buy them and shoot a mile. We set up a Day 1 KO2M practice course using permanently set highly reactive semi consumable targets. 4 targets from 1200 to 2200 yards, with sizes in the 1.5 - 2 moa range. No target setting really adds to the shooting time.
I don't have an Edge, but have been through a barrel with the Norma, the 338 Lapua, and several improved lapua cases. QL and ADG put the Edge case capacity between the 338 Lapua and the improved version. Given the same pressure, loading strategy, barrel length, and class of bullet, the 300 Norma runs with the 338 Lapua Improved for trajectory with ballistics. The Edge case holds a little more than the straight Lapua and a little less than the Improved. There is about 100 fps between the Lapua versions, so we're really splitting hairs.
Even if you can load ammo to the Advanced level, there are a host of fine motor skills and mental strategies that only come with practice. ELR is a game of chronic information shortages. Carrying information forward from target to target or from your teammates takes practice. It's also cheaper to learn to load great ammo with smaller cartridges. Reloading equipment is similar to the guns and optics. You don't just buy them and shoot a mile. We set up a Day 1 KO2M practice course using permanently set highly reactive semi consumable targets. 4 targets from 1200 to 2200 yards, with sizes in the 1.5 - 2 moa range. No target setting really adds to the shooting time.
I don't have an Edge, but have been through a barrel with the Norma, the 338 Lapua, and several improved lapua cases. QL and ADG put the Edge case capacity between the 338 Lapua and the improved version. Given the same pressure, loading strategy, barrel length, and class of bullet, the 300 Norma runs with the 338 Lapua Improved for trajectory with ballistics. The Edge case holds a little more than the straight Lapua and a little less than the Improved. There is about 100 fps between the Lapua versions, so we're really splitting hairs.
Just went through this but cost was a big factor. I went 7 saum. I woulda have done something based on norma mag or a cheytac if money was no object. Also, I live in the desert and the dirt is like talcum powder. If it was grass and moisture I would have gone with something bigger.
Im setting up to reach 2 miles.
Im setting up to reach 2 miles.
If you can get the target in a spot with decent visibility that lil 7mm bullet gets out there quite well.
Good catch on the 30 cal and .375 cal BC's. Fair points you made.Congrats on that match result, but check your 6 on that BC/Velocity thing.
First, average BC/Velocity is a second order problem. There are minimum requirements, but more isn't better if it starts cutting into the first order problem, BC/Velocity spreads.
Second, the highest score I'm aware of on the KO2M last target was shot with a straight 375CT and 400 grain Lazers. ~2950fps and a .450 G7 with a 34-36" barrel. Does that make it the best one to use? No, but it certainly suggests that it's adequate. The 30 caliber version of a 375CT is the 300 Lapua. I shoot that one at 2950 fps and a 250 ATip with a .450 G7.
These are the stats from a local match. The velocity migration within a string isn't bad, but after 500 rounds it's up 50 fps from just after break in. I know from experience that after that, the vertical will soon open up beyond 2000 yards. So why isn't this setup more popular at KO2M? First, 30 cals are denied admission. Second, that velocity spread is about half again what a 375CT/400 Lazer combo will do with H50 and a 215M. Even with a fresh barrel, the BC spread also will be 2-3 times the Lazer. It will not actually score with the Cheytac beyond 3000 yards. Inside of 2500, it'll certainly leave a mark though.
Third, let's go back to the KO2M. It's 2016 and AB's Fitzpatrick wins the match with a mega 375 shooting solids developed for maximum BC / minimum BC spread that are not available to the public. Yay! Berger is positioned to enter the solid market with a big splash. What most didn't notice is while Litz took second place with a 338 Edge and 300 grain Hybrids, the 338 outscored the 375 on the longer targets. The 338 Edge has a slight, but insignificant, ballistic disadvantage to the 300 Norma. There are better 30 caliber bullets than the 338 300 grain hybrid these days.
What I took away from that example was a lower performance / longer barrel life practice rifle was a good idea. It gives you more practice time and something to do while the other rifle is cooling down. It also provides harsh feedback on just how little is gained from cartridges with half the barrel life. When the big cartridge won't outscore the practice gun, it's past time for a fresh barrel. My first ELR practice gun was a 7/270WSM shooting blem 180 grain ELDm. These days, I'm experimenting with factory guns. We've come a long ways since 2016, particularly on the optics.
These are the stats for a 300PRC with a 230ATip. It still has the Ruger barrel. I don't have any full match stats uploaded, but the 32" Barlein barreled 300 Lapua will only outscore it by 1 more hit in 10 on a 37" target at 2100 yards. Far enough out, when the RMS error budget curves are steep enough, the scoring differences open up. Those distances are far enough, that the number of hours in a year that the conditions are suitable for shooting those ranges are dropping faster than the barrel life.
The point of all this is the 7rsaum guys are on to something for a hobbyist ELR setup and until velocity spread and the barrels contribution to BC variation are understood, taking elevation out of the turret won't do a bit of good. Wind is on you.
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ISS
Gold $$ Contributor
Rumor has it that due to pressure from the military teams the issue 300 NM will be allowed to shoot in 2026.
Running ballistic numbers suggests that the ballistic/hit numbers over the larger caliber rifles will place the Day One scores of the 300NM far out in front of the bigger ones. It is possible that the heavies cannot out score a 300 NM enough to make up the difference between 1 and 2 mile distances.
I would like to see a "Real World" system put in place. Spec the cartridge and rifle weight to what the Military uses on the Battlefield. Or place an additional target at 1000 yards and require competitors to shoot those five rounds offhand in ten minutes. Or hold their rifle overhead long enough to recite the Pledge of Allegiance out loud. Foolishness? Perhaps. But the wonderful Barretts and 416's don't show up in a Military Sniper's Kit.
I will try the Ko2M with my 300 NM if they let me. If not, I will just enjoy it as far out as I can range. Or just shoot Rockchucks as far as the Spotting scope will identify them and the Impact 4000 will give me the hold off to take the shot.
Because, as they say; "life's a beach, and then you drown...".
Running ballistic numbers suggests that the ballistic/hit numbers over the larger caliber rifles will place the Day One scores of the 300NM far out in front of the bigger ones. It is possible that the heavies cannot out score a 300 NM enough to make up the difference between 1 and 2 mile distances.
I would like to see a "Real World" system put in place. Spec the cartridge and rifle weight to what the Military uses on the Battlefield. Or place an additional target at 1000 yards and require competitors to shoot those five rounds offhand in ten minutes. Or hold their rifle overhead long enough to recite the Pledge of Allegiance out loud. Foolishness? Perhaps. But the wonderful Barretts and 416's don't show up in a Military Sniper's Kit.
I will try the Ko2M with my 300 NM if they let me. If not, I will just enjoy it as far out as I can range. Or just shoot Rockchucks as far as the Spotting scope will identify them and the Impact 4000 will give me the hold off to take the shot.
Because, as they say; "life's a beach, and then you drown...".
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