Is there any trick on getting the VLDS to fly?I just cant get them to work as good as the Sierra's.
Jon
Jon
30 Cal Berger VLDS
- Thread starter rem_kujawa
- Start date
Ive tried so far .001 off the lands on top of 42.0 Grains of 550 powder.
Spotcheck_Billy
Jon,
Most VLD users find success going between .010" to .020" into the lands. If you're loading hot and already seeing pressure signs you might have to back off the powder charge a little.
YMMV!
Most VLD users find success going between .010" to .020" into the lands. If you're loading hot and already seeing pressure signs you might have to back off the powder charge a little.
YMMV!
Here is an OCW test I did in the passed few days on the Berger 190's:
http://practicalrifler.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=569
The winner of the Georgia Long Range Championship in F/TR for the last 2 years was using Berger 190's in a GA Precision .308 rifle. He changed nothing about his load but swapped the SMK 190 for the Berger. In one of my bbls I found that .001 neck tension was the trick. In my current load I am using .002 and gradually moving the seating depth as I load OCW's. I have found that for every .01 deeper in the case I go I have to go down .3gr in the powder charge to keep the accuracy there.
For what it's worth...
http://practicalrifler.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=569
The winner of the Georgia Long Range Championship in F/TR for the last 2 years was using Berger 190's in a GA Precision .308 rifle. He changed nothing about his load but swapped the SMK 190 for the Berger. In one of my bbls I found that .001 neck tension was the trick. In my current load I am using .002 and gradually moving the seating depth as I load OCW's. I have found that for every .01 deeper in the case I go I have to go down .3gr in the powder charge to keep the accuracy there.
For what it's worth...
Rem,
Calipers are not exactly dead nut on. When using a ring type gage to measure the round from the base to where the bearing surfaces ends you are going to have even more trouble getting a dead nuts reading. I say this because you mention that you are .001 off the rifling. I would not trust calipers to consistently measure .001 to the point where I would load my rounds to reach this exact dimension.
If you measure five different loaded rounds from the base of the cartridge to the end of the bearing surface of the bullet,where the bullet meets the rifling) you will find slight variances. Record the dimensions of each round and measure the rounds again. You will find that the readings vary and will often not be the same for a given round. Does this mean that you have variation in your base to bearing surface? Maybe, but if your seating die is good and locked up and you are not pushing the bullet in the case by the very tip,which sometimes happens due to the long secant ogive of the VLD) then the variation is likely the error range in the calipers combined with the challenge of putting that ring type gage exactly in the same spot on a VLD bullet every time.
For this reason it is best to test your load at .010 into the rifling and .010 off of the rifling. If your barrel favors jam or jump when shooting VLDs then this test will tell you right away. From that point you can tweak slightly to tighten up the precision if needed. By being .001 off the rifling you are in a bit of a no man's land where some bullets might be just touching while some are not. It is better for load testing to be clearly in and clearly out to find if this matters in your rifle.
Regards,
Eric
Calipers are not exactly dead nut on. When using a ring type gage to measure the round from the base to where the bearing surfaces ends you are going to have even more trouble getting a dead nuts reading. I say this because you mention that you are .001 off the rifling. I would not trust calipers to consistently measure .001 to the point where I would load my rounds to reach this exact dimension.
If you measure five different loaded rounds from the base of the cartridge to the end of the bearing surface of the bullet,where the bullet meets the rifling) you will find slight variances. Record the dimensions of each round and measure the rounds again. You will find that the readings vary and will often not be the same for a given round. Does this mean that you have variation in your base to bearing surface? Maybe, but if your seating die is good and locked up and you are not pushing the bullet in the case by the very tip,which sometimes happens due to the long secant ogive of the VLD) then the variation is likely the error range in the calipers combined with the challenge of putting that ring type gage exactly in the same spot on a VLD bullet every time.
For this reason it is best to test your load at .010 into the rifling and .010 off of the rifling. If your barrel favors jam or jump when shooting VLDs then this test will tell you right away. From that point you can tweak slightly to tighten up the precision if needed. By being .001 off the rifling you are in a bit of a no man's land where some bullets might be just touching while some are not. It is better for load testing to be clearly in and clearly out to find if this matters in your rifle.
Regards,
Eric
I agree with Eric 100% try .010 in lands,touchin,,010 jump.you'll find something quick.Look at the vertical in the groups 1 of them is going to be flatter than the others start to tweak around there.Vld's are not hard to make shoot,and jammin them is not written in stone my heavy and light 300wsm's both are jumping .005 and I'd say they're workin pretty good.
Matt,
You make a great point. We have been telling folks for years that the VLDs TYPICALLY shoot best when touching the rifling. This information came from the fact that back when the VLD was introduced many of those who shoot heavier bullets,maybe most) were jumping their bullets.
The larger bullet makers relay that you need to jump your bullet to avoid pressure problems. The truth is that the pressure increase by touching the rifling is small,it does increase pressure so if you are already using a hot load you should back down a bit before testing loads with the bullet in the rifling). However the increase in pressure by touch the rifling is not nearly enough to cause a safety concern,UNLESS YOUR LOAD ALREADY GENERATES HIGH PRESSURE-disclaimer published
The recommendation of jumping the bullet by these bullet makers is actually because of the fact that in many cases,maybe all) they are using multiple dies to make bullets that end up in the same box.,There is no other way to make quantity without using multiple dies as machine can only run so fast)
Since it is impossible to make ogive dies EXACTLY the same you end up with bullets that will give you a variation in the base of the cartridge to the end of the bearing surface,where the bullet touches the rifling). This can occur even if the dimension from the base to the ogive of a bullet is exactly the same since the distance from the base of the case to the end of the bearing surface is set by the seating die and the relationship between where the bullet touches the seating stem and the ogive shape,not the base to ogive measurement of the bullet).
This is very important because if the distance from the base of the cartridge to the end of the bearing surface varies significantly due to slight differences in ogive shape and you are near the rifling you will have some rounds where the bullets touch the rifling and some rounds that don't touch. This inconsistency is very bad for precision which is why these larger bullet makers tell you to jump your bullets because then you are always not touching the rifling which increases their precision potential,makes them shoot better).
I mention all this because when the VLD was introduced most shooters tried the bullet with a jump. Many were successful but others had trouble. When those who had trouble extended the COAL so that the VLD touched the rifling the precision improved. That is were the statement of "TYPICALLY the VLD shoot better if you touch the rifling" came from. So what we should be saying is that "IF you are having precision trouble with the VLD the best thing to try first is to put the bullet into the rifling at least .010."
Now that the VLD have become much more popular we are getting many reports that they shoot well when jumped. So the proper thing to do is to try the VLD at both .010 into the lands and .010 off of the lands and if it matters in your rifle,sometimes it doesn't) then this test will tell your pretty quickly which is better for you.
Regards,
Eric
You make a great point. We have been telling folks for years that the VLDs TYPICALLY shoot best when touching the rifling. This information came from the fact that back when the VLD was introduced many of those who shoot heavier bullets,maybe most) were jumping their bullets.
The larger bullet makers relay that you need to jump your bullet to avoid pressure problems. The truth is that the pressure increase by touching the rifling is small,it does increase pressure so if you are already using a hot load you should back down a bit before testing loads with the bullet in the rifling). However the increase in pressure by touch the rifling is not nearly enough to cause a safety concern,UNLESS YOUR LOAD ALREADY GENERATES HIGH PRESSURE-disclaimer published
The recommendation of jumping the bullet by these bullet makers is actually because of the fact that in many cases,maybe all) they are using multiple dies to make bullets that end up in the same box.,There is no other way to make quantity without using multiple dies as machine can only run so fast)
Since it is impossible to make ogive dies EXACTLY the same you end up with bullets that will give you a variation in the base of the cartridge to the end of the bearing surface,where the bullet touches the rifling). This can occur even if the dimension from the base to the ogive of a bullet is exactly the same since the distance from the base of the case to the end of the bearing surface is set by the seating die and the relationship between where the bullet touches the seating stem and the ogive shape,not the base to ogive measurement of the bullet).
This is very important because if the distance from the base of the cartridge to the end of the bearing surface varies significantly due to slight differences in ogive shape and you are near the rifling you will have some rounds where the bullets touch the rifling and some rounds that don't touch. This inconsistency is very bad for precision which is why these larger bullet makers tell you to jump your bullets because then you are always not touching the rifling which increases their precision potential,makes them shoot better).
I mention all this because when the VLD was introduced most shooters tried the bullet with a jump. Many were successful but others had trouble. When those who had trouble extended the COAL so that the VLD touched the rifling the precision improved. That is were the statement of "TYPICALLY the VLD shoot better if you touch the rifling" came from. So what we should be saying is that "IF you are having precision trouble with the VLD the best thing to try first is to put the bullet into the rifling at least .010."
Now that the VLD have become much more popular we are getting many reports that they shoot well when jumped. So the proper thing to do is to try the VLD at both .010 into the lands and .010 off of the lands and if it matters in your rifle,sometimes it doesn't) then this test will tell your pretty quickly which is better for you.
Regards,
Eric
When testing 185 VLDs recently, I loaded the rounds to 3" OAL in my 308 and tried to load a round. I couldn't close the bolt easily, so I just kept reducing the OAL a bit until the bolt closed fairly easy. I am guessing that the bullet was just about touching the lands or backed off .010 or so.,I know this isn't the most scientific way to get an OAL, but I didn't have the proper tooling where I was reloading) Anyhow...I made a few different loads and hit 1/2 moa @ 200 yards right off the bat.I thought I had some fliers, but some bullets were going through the same hole!
Chris
Chris
Bryan Litz Ballistics
Site $$ Sponsor
Guys,
Here's a write-up I did on some recent mid-weight .308 VLD loads,155, 168 and 175 gr). My objective was to improve on my old load that used 155 SMK's.
The write-up addresses many performance aspects,reliability, precision, wind drift, etc) affected by powder charge, muzzle velocity, seating depth and bullet weight.
-Bryan
Here's a write-up I did on some recent mid-weight .308 VLD loads,155, 168 and 175 gr). My objective was to improve on my old load that used 155 SMK's.
The write-up addresses many performance aspects,reliability, precision, wind drift, etc) affected by powder charge, muzzle velocity, seating depth and bullet weight.
-Bryan
Ok I will try going .010 into the lands next time out and see what happens,also what about soft seating the bullet using a .001 under your loaded next dia.Just a thought.
I also like to thank you guys for the help.this site is by far the best shooting site out there.
Jon
I also like to thank you guys for the help.this site is by far the best shooting site out there.
Jon
Forum Boss
Administrator
rem_kujawa said:
If you mean .001" under loaded NECK diameter, we need to be a little more precise. If, for discussion, your loaded neck diameter is .336", and you use a .335" bushing, you will have some springback so the actual tension on the bullet will be maybe half a thousandth or less. If you want .001" tension you'll probably need a .334" bushing. Neck tension in the .001-.0015" range has proved very accurate in many calibers, but you'll want to experiment. You may find that even .001" tension is sufficiently "grippy" so that the bullet does not easily move back in the case and it will simply engrave in the rifling as you chamber the round.
Personally, I would try .0015" neck tension with the bullets .010" in the lands and .015" in the lands and see how that works. Make sure you shoot with wind flags, and try to shoot the two test loads in similar conditions so you'll have a true "apples to apples" comparison.
My loaded neck Dia,is .337 and I am using the .335 bushing.
Jon
Jon
Spotcheck_Billy
Paul,
I assume that you meant .010" and .015" into the lands
MODERATOR: Yep, .010" and .015"
Jon,
You could try a .001" larger bushing as long as the reduction in neck tension still allows the neck to sufficiently grip the bullet. It's just something else to experiment with, but remember to try omly one change at a time or you'll wind up chasing yourself all over the place.
I assume that you meant .010" and .015" into the lands
MODERATOR: Yep, .010" and .015"
Jon,
You could try a .001" larger bushing as long as the reduction in neck tension still allows the neck to sufficiently grip the bullet. It's just something else to experiment with, but remember to try omly one change at a time or you'll wind up chasing yourself all over the place.
Ok ill give it a shot.
thanks guys
Jon
thanks guys
Jon
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