I need some help, I have done some research on the net, and I have not been able to find ONE instance of a Winchester 94 being blown up because of the use of spitzer bullets. I have found a plastic tube of the exact same diameter of the magazine on a 94, and I have filled it with .30-30 cartridges loaded with spitzer bullets. If I apply a steady pressure at both ends there is no way of having the tips meeting the primers. So what I need is a link to a documented and recorded blow up of a 94, not some hearsay or memory of a campfire debate. Besides, I've known a lot of gunsmiths and none ever had to witness that kind of catastrophic failure or ever saw a blown up 94. So, what do you know that I don't?
.30-30 Winchester: primers vs bullets, busting a myth or treading on thin ice?
- Thread starter 2644ever
- Start date
I reload for two 30-30s, a Stevens bolt action with a 3 shot clip and a Marlin lever gun with a tubular magazine.
I played around with using spitzers in the Stevens and to be honest couldn't find an advantage that was worth the effort. I love the 30-30, it's a fantastic round and if you want to experiment with it more power to you. But for the time/money I've put into it, the fantatic bullets available in rn/fn don't really lose anything to the spitzers inside of 100-150 yards, if anything that wide meplat is a plus.
I played around with using spitzers in the Stevens and to be honest couldn't find an advantage that was worth the effort. I love the 30-30, it's a fantastic round and if you want to experiment with it more power to you. But for the time/money I've put into it, the fantatic bullets available in rn/fn don't really lose anything to the spitzers inside of 100-150 yards, if anything that wide meplat is a plus.
Life is hard, even harder when your stupid, dont try it.
Yeah, and we never hear about the guys that put the wrong ammo in gun either, like a 243 in a 308 or something else,,
I think mattri said it best, the 30-30 is at best a 200yrd gun, using spitzers you aren't going to gain much. The bore, twist and receiver design isn't made for the high pressure loads needed to take advantage of the SPBT designs.
If spitzers where a good idea for the 30-30 every company out there would be offering them?? And the leverevelution (250yrd?) wouldn't have been needed??
I'd guess conditions would have to be just right for a bullet to go off in the tube, worn primer pockets, temps just right, rapid fire maybe,, ammo loaded and unloaded for a few seasons,,? Conditions just right or just wrong.
I though of it too, then decided my 30-30 will just be what it is. I thought I'd just try loading some Game Kings for the first one in the tube, but I'm going to keep the iron sights on it and they ain't much good past 150 anyways.
If I plan to shoot further than that I'll carry a different gun that's more effective at that range :-\
I think mattri said it best, the 30-30 is at best a 200yrd gun, using spitzers you aren't going to gain much. The bore, twist and receiver design isn't made for the high pressure loads needed to take advantage of the SPBT designs.
If spitzers where a good idea for the 30-30 every company out there would be offering them?? And the leverevelution (250yrd?) wouldn't have been needed??
I'd guess conditions would have to be just right for a bullet to go off in the tube, worn primer pockets, temps just right, rapid fire maybe,, ammo loaded and unloaded for a few seasons,,? Conditions just right or just wrong.
I though of it too, then decided my 30-30 will just be what it is. I thought I'd just try loading some Game Kings for the first one in the tube, but I'm going to keep the iron sights on it and they ain't much good past 150 anyways.
If I plan to shoot further than that I'll carry a different gun that's more effective at that range :-\
My experience is that the .30-30 in a Contender pistol (10" and 14") is quite accurate at 200 meters. Used it in IHMSA competition back when I was young. With a 150 grain spitzer bullet loaded over H-322 powder it was able to clean 40 straight easily, and knock off the chickens at 200 meters for tie beakers. All that in an iron sighted handgun. The .30-30 is a very accurate cartridge, it's the lever action rifles that limit it. I have seen a few bolt action rifles in .30-30, the Remington 788 comes to mind, and a few custom rifles, it is very accurate when chambered in a bolt action or single shot.
Would I shoot spitzer bullets in a Model 94? No, because if it does chain fire in the magazine tube, my hand is likely to be wrapped around the forend and shredded with the hardware. I have enough suture lines and missing parts now.
Remington had the solution in the Model 141 Gamemaster, a pump action tubular magazine rifle with a special spiral magazine that prevented the bullet tips from contacting the primers of the cartridge ahead. I had one in .35 Remington that worked with pointed bullets quite well. Winchester was probably justified in not adopting such a device to allow using pointed bullets as the Model 94 sold well without it, and little was to be gained by an expensive modification.
Would I shoot spitzer bullets in a Model 94? No, because if it does chain fire in the magazine tube, my hand is likely to be wrapped around the forend and shredded with the hardware. I have enough suture lines and missing parts now.
Remington had the solution in the Model 141 Gamemaster, a pump action tubular magazine rifle with a special spiral magazine that prevented the bullet tips from contacting the primers of the cartridge ahead. I had one in .35 Remington that worked with pointed bullets quite well. Winchester was probably justified in not adopting such a device to allow using pointed bullets as the Model 94 sold well without it, and little was to be gained by an expensive modification.
2644ever,
Hornady, the current maker of the leverevolution ammo, had this experience in their lab several years back. One of their ballistic techs (his name was Ed Heers, if I recall correctly) lost his left hand in a magazine detonation. He was a senior tech there at the time, and was later killed in the same plane crash that took Joyce Hornady. Yes, it is possible, and yes, it can and does happen. Trying this a few times and not having any sort of mishap is a bit like making a mad dash across an LA freeway, surviving, and declaring it perfectly safe.
For what it's worth, there have been rifles intended to use with spitzer bullets, and all have incorporated some postive means of preventing tip to primer contact. The 8mm Lebel, for example, used a large groove cut into the head of the case (around the primer) to prevent the nose of the leading cartridge from making contact with the primer of the next one in the mag. Remington used to offer a pump rifle (Model 131?) which used a magazine that had a series of spirals impressed into the walls, which forced the rounds in the mag to offest from the primers of the next round ahead of it in the magazine. There's a reason all these firms have gone to this trouble. Trust me, it's not worth finding out the hard way.
Hornady, the current maker of the leverevolution ammo, had this experience in their lab several years back. One of their ballistic techs (his name was Ed Heers, if I recall correctly) lost his left hand in a magazine detonation. He was a senior tech there at the time, and was later killed in the same plane crash that took Joyce Hornady. Yes, it is possible, and yes, it can and does happen. Trying this a few times and not having any sort of mishap is a bit like making a mad dash across an LA freeway, surviving, and declaring it perfectly safe.
For what it's worth, there have been rifles intended to use with spitzer bullets, and all have incorporated some postive means of preventing tip to primer contact. The 8mm Lebel, for example, used a large groove cut into the head of the case (around the primer) to prevent the nose of the leading cartridge from making contact with the primer of the next one in the mag. Remington used to offer a pump rifle (Model 131?) which used a magazine that had a series of spirals impressed into the walls, which forced the rounds in the mag to offest from the primers of the next round ahead of it in the magazine. There's a reason all these firms have gone to this trouble. Trust me, it's not worth finding out the hard way.
Thank you so much Mister Thomas, this is exactly what I needed: a non judgmental assessment of a recorded instance of a catastrophic failure, with names, background, outcome and stuff... Everybody on this topic, thank you too! But let me just appease your concerns, I got no suicidal tendencies and I would never play with the safety of my fellow shooters. In my line of work, I need to deal with hard facts, not urban legends or hearsay. Before attempting anything like using spitzer loaded cartridges thru a Model 94 magazine, I had to know the how's and why's of all the warnings I got when I did some research. I needed straight answers to "did it happen?", "could it happen?", "could I simulate it at will?"... It's hard not to have in mind the dumb warnings that have been rollmarked on our barrels and receivers since the seventies. In our litigation society, it's getting increasingly difficult to make a difference between CYA statements and the real deal... Anyway, you can be sure I'll never attempt to use the magazine of my 94 with the 155 grain Scenars she is so fond of.
Case closed.
Case closed.
I know of a 12ga shotgun round that went off when the round was ejected out of the gun. The round fell about 3 feet from the gun's loading port to the ground and hit a small rock setting it off. No one was hurt but it got the guy's attention. The case opened the crimp and ejected the shot and wad, I saw the shell after the fact and the body was swelled some but may be reloaded. Just a freak thing.
2664ever,
Did a little digging after posting this yesterday. The Remington Model 14s and their replacements, the Model 141s were the ones I was speaking of. Tubular magazine pump guns, chambered in 25, 30, 32 and 35 Remington Specials, they utilized the impressed spirals I'd described precisely to preclude the possibility of primer detonation caused by the preceeding round in the mag.
You bring up a good point though. There have been recent runs of 8mm Lebel brass that omitted the dished annulus surrounding the primer which was present in original French military ammo of that period. I would assume that this could present a hazard if these old rifles (which had tubular magazines) were used with loads put up in this modern brass. Just another of those little things to be aware of and keep an eye our for . . ..
Did a little digging after posting this yesterday. The Remington Model 14s and their replacements, the Model 141s were the ones I was speaking of. Tubular magazine pump guns, chambered in 25, 30, 32 and 35 Remington Specials, they utilized the impressed spirals I'd described precisely to preclude the possibility of primer detonation caused by the preceeding round in the mag.
You bring up a good point though. There have been recent runs of 8mm Lebel brass that omitted the dished annulus surrounding the primer which was present in original French military ammo of that period. I would assume that this could present a hazard if these old rifles (which had tubular magazines) were used with loads put up in this modern brass. Just another of those little things to be aware of and keep an eye our for . . ..
Mister Thomas , you're right to bring that to attention. It is a fact that, in the old days the 8mm Lebel was loaded with the ancestor of all boat tails, solids and VLD's: the famous Balle "D" or "D" Bullet, that was lathe turned out of hard bronze alloy by the wives of the soldiers who were being butchered by the hundreds of thousands during WW I. Such a hard bullet would definitely have set off the very sensitive primers of that period. Nowadays anybody who'd reload for a Lebel would probably choose a lead tipped spitzer and... take a chance!
To show you how a good 94 is able to perform in the hands of a professional, watch that video:
http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/39/6ik.mp4/
The reactive target is that 6'x6' square left of the tank, the distance is 1275 meters, the bullet is a 155 Scenar and the load is a very stiff (but safe in that gun) dose of N540 in Norma brass.
We used QuickTarget and the MilDot reticle of a Leupold telescope, so we calculated a virtual point above the horizon located at an angle equal to the one between the target and the horizon. The B.C. must have been slightly optimistic because the 1st shot landed 2' low, but the next 5 shots were right on target...
It goes without saying that the shooter is quite talented.
Again, thank you Sir.
To show you how a good 94 is able to perform in the hands of a professional, watch that video:
http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/39/6ik.mp4/
The reactive target is that 6'x6' square left of the tank, the distance is 1275 meters, the bullet is a 155 Scenar and the load is a very stiff (but safe in that gun) dose of N540 in Norma brass.
We used QuickTarget and the MilDot reticle of a Leupold telescope, so we calculated a virtual point above the horizon located at an angle equal to the one between the target and the horizon. The B.C. must have been slightly optimistic because the 1st shot landed 2' low, but the next 5 shots were right on target...
It goes without saying that the shooter is quite talented.
Again, thank you Sir.
jonbearman
I live in new york state,how unfortunate !
A local gunshop had a 94 that was blown up by the pointed bullets.It split the mag tube and bent the barrel and splintered the forend into toothpicks. I saw it with my own eyes and witnessed a chain fire in an autoloading shotgun. If you run pointed bullets in a tube mag,you are crazy.If you single load them,I dont see a problem. But please dont do it,the 30-30 with 170gr flat points is a hammer out to 150 yds.Stick with safe ammo like leverevolution.
Standard round-nose soft-point .30-30 ammo is amazingly effective. A very well refined hunter's cartridge, easy recoil, heavy-duty results on target within the intended range of the .30-30 cartridge:
These were all captured after shooting them into one-gallon water-filled milk jugs. Penetration & expansion were excellent with all three bullets tested.
These were all captured after shooting them into one-gallon water-filled milk jugs. Penetration & expansion were excellent with all three bullets tested.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.