30-06 ap

[aintright]

I have a bunch of 30-06 165 gr. ap rds I bought several years ago and they don't seem to shoot as well in my Garand as they used too . I hadn't shot gun or ammo in 4-5 years and decided a couple months ago to get it all out and play . Groups were 4-6 inches at 100 yds and this is about double the group size I used to get with this ammo . I bought a collet puller and pulled the bullets . The powder is some sort of ball powder and some of the rds had to be bunped with seater to pull . So I have several questions , one , what sort of powder do you think it might be ? Cases are marked L C 53 headstamp , Box is white with green label , yellow letters and states it is 30-06 black tip , 165 gr bullet non corrosive , boxer primed , new unfired U.S. military brass , manufactured in the U.S.A. I am assuming it is probally reloads ? Any way I tried reloading them in original brass with some H4350 and IMR 4064 , hoping to get maybe sone two inch groups . Am I expecting to much from an ap bullet ? With some Fed Eagle 150 gr FMJ's I have occasionally gotten groups in the 2-3 inch range with the Garand . Thank you , Kenneth

 

[XTR]

That AP stuff is designed for machine guns. Accuracy is not their forte. Also, AP rounds typically have a hard metal (steel, tungsten) core that the bullet is build around. It is pretty much impossible to have it exactly balanced in the center, so they wobble (this is why green tip 5.56 stuff is not as precise as other bullets), but if you are spraying down a vehicle pinpoint accuracy is not something you really need.

If you are punching holes in light armor or unarmored vehicles they will be fine, otherwise hey are just eh.

 

[amlevin]

I have a bunch of 30-06 165 gr. ap rds I bought several years ago and they don't seem to shoot as well in my Garand as they used too . I hadn't shot gun or ammo in 4-5 years and decided a couple months ago to get it all out and play . Groups were 4-6 inches at 100 yds and this is about double the group size I used to get with this ammo . I bought a collet puller and pulled the bullets . The powder is some sort of ball powder and some of the rds had to be bunped with seater to pull . So I have several questions , one , what sort of powder do you think it might be ? Cases are marked L C 53 headstamp , Box is white with green label , yellow letters and states it is 30-06 black tip , 165 gr bullet non corrosive , boxer primed , new unfired U.S. military brass , manufactured in the U.S.A. I am assuming it is probally reloads ? Any way I tried reloading them in original brass with some H4350 and IMR 4064 , hoping to get maybe sone two inch groups . Am I expecting to much from an ap bullet ? With some Fed Eagle 150 gr FMJ's I have occasionally gotten groups in the 2-3 inch range with the Garand . Thank you , Kenneth

According to TM43-0001-27 Small Arms Ammunition Manual, the propellant in this round is WC 852.

Now the trick is determining it's civilian equivalent. As for expectations? Maybe a little high for this bullet but all really depends on the barrel, overall rifle condition, and the shooter. I know I blame my rifles for deteriorating accuracy and then they all start surprising me again. Who knows, maybe they just follow my mood 8)

 

[aintright]

Thanks for the input I was able to run a few rounds through it before rain set in . The 147 gr FMJ Korean shot an average of 3.5" , Some old Remington 180 gr. Core Lokt ammo that was packed in ten rd. packs printed the best , with a 2" average , which I was very pleased with . The 165 as loaded from the manufacturer shot 4.25" group . Remington 165 gr. Accutip ran 2.5" . I didn't have time to experiment with handloads today , but I doubt it will get a lot better than the 180 gr. Core Lokt .
I was aware that the military stuff wasn't loaded for accuracy , it just seems it shot better before , but as you say I have shot some days that made you wonder WTH ? Thanks , Kenneth

 

[Xedefoplop]

What I read I really liked it. Thank you for your information!

 

[jonbearman]

Is there a possiblity that when you put it away five years ago ,the copper build up in the barrel had reached its max and accuracy fell off.What do you clean your barrel with?My garand shoots ap very well.However I jb the bore everytime I shoot alot of rounds out of it.

 

[gtl1946]

I've used Sierra 168 seconds and they work very well at 1-200 yds out of my 308's and 30-06's with
IMR 4895 and Acc. Arms 2520. I know I was between 46-47 grns of the 4895 which shot well and I have a Savage rebarreled with a Broughton barrel that shot the seconds w/47 grn of IMR 4895 into the 0.4's at 200 yds . I like those bullets and powders . I believe acceptance was 3" @ 100 yds with the M-1's . All of my M-1's shot that combo well .

 

[stool]

ok...yes i believe these are commercial reloads AND NOT usgi AP.

milsurplus usa ap ammo has a very good rep for accuracy. old timers liked shooting it in matches because it was so good.

or the gun went south ??

 

[mjoplin]

In your original post you mentioned: "Any way I tried reloading them in original brass with some H4350 and IMR 4064 , hoping to get maybe some two inch groups . " and you also mentioned using Remington commercial rounds later in the post.

If you are not using an adjustable gas plug in your Garand, you may be in dangerous territory for your rifle's health. The Garand is very picky about the pressure curve on the powder and you could trash your op rod using commercial ammo or the wrong powder.

Stick with 4895 (H or IMR) or 4064 with the Garand and you'll be safe. Note that H4985 and IMR4895 will have different data, they are not the same powder. You might want to check out Master Po's Garand load page, it is a "go to" page for Garand reloaders. http://masterpostemple.bravepages.com/M1load.htm

 

[jonbearman]

Thanks for the link to master po's reloading pages.Alot of good imfo there.

 

[Michael Courtney]

We occasionally use this bullet in armor testing. Getting an accurate and consistent velocity load is a major pain because it must be the most inconsistent bullet ever made. First, we pull a bunch of bullets and clean in stainless tumbling media to remove the sealant. Then we weight sort to get a group of bullets in a 0.5 grain weight range. Then we coat with HBN per the David Tubb coating protocol. Then we load into carefully prepped Lapua brass with between 58 and 59 grains H4350 and a Fed 210M primer. The bullet still stinks, but this is good enough to keep the velocities within a tight target range and place the bullets where we need to on the armor plates. H4350 probably won't cycle a semi-auto, but it is consistent when the barrel heats up.

 

[jhord]

Whenever my M1 causes me to ask "wth?" it's usually the gas plug coming loose. Just sayin'.

 

[moorepower]

Do NOT use 4350 in a Garand, unless you want a bent op rod. My Krieger barreled Garand, always shoots IMR 4064 the best. The 4895's, Varget and VV 135 all work great. If you want to make a $$ pull the bullets and put them on Gunbroker in lots of 10. They are going for stupid $$. I can remember when they could be had for penny's each. Most ranges are not fond of these.

 

[amlevin]

I can remember when they could be had for penny's each. Most ranges are not fond of these.

Me too. "Two bits" got you 5 rounds with the stripper clip thrown in for free.

Of course 1903 A3's were selling for $12 back then too. 8)

What's too bad is that when ammo and guns were cheap I couldn't afford them. Now that I can afford them there's no ammo and guns are costing as much as luxury cars did back then. :'(