3 shot group vs ladder tests

[Fuj]

leave your chrono at home....paper NEVER lies !!

I like to argue this statement.....If you have the eguipment, use it.
Mines on the bench every session during development. I fire no
less then 3 shots in any test string. When firing a test group with
two in the same hole and one way out, the chrono will tell you if
you screwed up a charge making that test group skewed. A shot
going out of a group can be caused by many things, but the chrono
will tell you if velocity was part of the problem. Then again, had a
2830, 2842 and a 2790 that shot a two......If that 2790 would have been
closer to the first two, would it have been a 0ne ?? Smoke em' if you
got em'.......

 

[Doom]

I like to argue this statement.....If you have the eguipment, use it.
Mines on the bench every session during development. I fire no
less then 3 shots in any test string. When firing a test group with
two in the same hole and one way out, the chrono will tell you if
you screwed up a charge making that test group skewed. A shot
going out of a group can be caused by many things, but the chrono
will tell you if velocity was part of the problem. Then again, had a
2830, 2842 and a 2790 that shot a two......If that 2790 would have been
closer to the first two, would it have been a 0ne ?? Smoke em' if you
got em'.......

Ok, I'll bite! While your point is actually valid the issue is the chronograph data is only ONE element of precision and its importance is related to the time of flight (distance) that the bullet travels. The effect of a 20 or even 50 fps variation in velocity on 100yd test is noise. The effect is less than one caliber for most centerfire cartridges. Correlation to the point of impact is lost in the myriad of other effects. Depending on the barrel characteristics at the point of release a lower velocity bullet may actually impact higher that the higher impact bullet.

Bottom line is the velocity data is good imformation to have. Ultimately it is important but only within the context of the rounds consistency or other requirements, such as power factor. The first requirement for precision (my order) is that the barrel is pointed in the same line of sight for each round with small changes in velocity/barrel time and minimal cross velocity. Determining that load/"node" doesn't require specific knowledge of velocity. Unfortunately too many people think of chronograph data as an "Easy Button" and an end all to load development. Even experienced shooter fall into this trap. Scott Satterlee proposed his 10 shot velocity ladder test based on some data that he saw (flatter spots) for different charge weights. Unfortunately he misinterpreted the cause of the flat spots.

 

[Rope2horns]

Let me guess, We should also tune at 100 yards and not chase the lands? LOL

Now you're just giving away all the secrets.

 

[KMW 1954]

My perspective; I am a novice target shooter, I am not shooting top of the line equipment, I shoot from a bench with a bipod and a bag because that is what our league dictates. I am also only shooting short range out to 300yds.

First an foremost I need to be honest in the assessment of my own abilities and capabilities. Next I need to remember my equipment short comings. After-all the rifle and the ammunition's are only going to perform to my ability. I can consistently shoot .5MOA and when on a good day I can shoot .2MOA. Then on those somewhat rare occasions I can put 2 rounds into the same hole. But yes I believe this rifle and ammunition is much more accurate than me.

Now with time and experience I am learning to call those errant shots more and more. So for me it is taking more than just one 3 shot group to determine a good, reliable and repeatable load. I test fire to find a consistent group. One I find what I believe is the most consisten group I will load it several more times and shoot it on alternate days and times to try and validate it.

This may not be the best method or the most economical method but for me it works and also provides valuable trigger time to work on my mechanics and posture. I don't want to argue Why, I just want to see acceptable results. I also feel my skills and abilities are slowly catching up to my equipment.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I recommend running your “ladders” with three shot groups. Single shot ladders can be especially misleading. Two shot ladders may tell you what a barrel doesn’t like, but they won’t necessarily tell you what a barrel likes. You get more information about grouping, flat spots as well as how each of the charges “moves” shooting three shot “ladders”.

Remember, you aren’t looking for different charges that produce the same velocity. You are looking for points where the barrel harmonics and the velocity dump different charges into the same group(elevation).

Here is an old 1K three shot AA2495 ladder I shot when H4895 was in short supply. Two nodes were identified for this BRA barrel. Next step was a three shot test with a finer 1/10th grain increment. Sorry about the joke Roy!

View attachment 1674550

Things get tougher at 600 yards because shots start to cluster closer together, hopefully. Here is an old 600 yard ladder again with a BRA. Shortly after shooting this, the barrel, with 29.7 gr., shot the smallest 8 target aggregate ever shot at IBS Nationals. It was 1.611”

Notice the overlap of 29.7, 29.8 and 29.9. I like it when a lighter load prints on top of or preferably slightly higher than a heavier load. I will pick it every time. Sorry shot marker guys, but you really need a piece of paper in your hand to let it talk to you. It’s all about those triangles!

View attachment 1674551

Here is a seating “ladder”. I had a proven load with this 6.5x47L but was concerned about throat movement firing a 16 target match. The left to right wind kept picking up as I shot but you can see that .006” jump all the way up to .018” shot at about the same elevation so I had .012” of erosion to play with.

View attachment 1674553

This barrel and load ended up shooting a tiny 1.338” group at the Rendezvous three weeks later. The bottom line is three shot group “ladders” help me develop sound loads while minimizing round count. I then verify with 5 or ten shot groups depending on the match I’m tuning for.

View attachment 1674579

Dave.

That 2880 node in the 6bra is hard to beat.

 

[Bc'z]

That 2880 node in the 6bra is hard to beat.

Considering that where my 6br is shooting I'd have to agree. Lol

 

[JFrank]

Some times it is and sometimes it ain’t ‘ you shoot the one that shoots best.
I can’t say I’m going to shoot a 2880 node because it might not be there when I run a ladder.

 

[Steve Donlon]

Some times it is and sometimes it ain’t ‘ you shoot the one that shoots best.
I can’t say I’m going to shoot a 2880 node because it might not be there when I run a ladder.

You got to start some where.

 

[JFrank]

The point I’m making is that powders lots are not all the same, I chase the tune not the speed.
I have a lot of N140 that shoots well at about 2880, Varget tuned in about 2930 and some H4895 that shoots lights out at around 3000 so if I tried to focus on speed I’d be in trouble. I’ve done that before about five years ago and it doesn’t work very well.

 

[ELR LVR]

The point I’m making is that powders lots are not all the same, I chase the tune not the speed.

Precisely!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best advice, Chase the Tune
and is one reason why I rarely use my chrono 90% of the time
It is when I've finally found a load...
...Then I break out the chrono and measure velocity.
Again, just me, because I don't want to be influenced to chase velocity instead of a tune.
I'd rather be blind to the velocity at the moment, and tune the load first.

 

[Fuj]

The effect of a 20 or even 50 fps variation in velocity on 100yd test is noise.

Well yes if it's a fat woodchuck as your target. But if you just missed the X count
by .001" in a score competition, all data compiled and logged is relevant for
inspection. It's my personal method. Normally, I'll just turn the Chrono on and
let it run. After the session and at home, I'll then Look over each 3 shots in succession, and mark it down in each bull shot. Those targets then go into a
dated folder for future reference.

 

[Varminterror]

leave your chrono at home....paper NEVER lies !!

Counterpoint (and I hesitate to reveal my own deceit here):

As a personal exploration, I trolled another forum last fall under a different user name and posted threads asking for help on my load dev: in one thread, I shot the same load, nothing different at all, into 10x 3 shot groups on a target board which looked like an OCW test at 300yrds (I usually do OCW’s instead of coloring bullets, just because I’m lazy), and the other thread, I posted 10x 5 shot groups, again, the exact same load for all 50 shots, in a grid marked with what would be seating depth/bullet jumps - in both threads, I asked what load I should pick based on that test.

A lot of folks were very passionate about which charge weight to chase in the fake OCW test, and which bullet jump to chase in the fake seating depth test. Several folks pointed to regions and said I should retest at 0.1grn increments to find the edges of the node, or said I should go back to XX and YY bullet jump and test 2x 10 shot groups at 500 to see which of those two would end up the best, since those were the “obvious jump nodes.” Not a single respondent called me out on the loads looking to all be exactly the same, not a single respondent stated the groups were too similar to differentiate. EVERY response suggested nodes showing up one place or another, despite the fact every shot was the same jump and same charge weight.

Targets don’t lie, but we can lie to ourselves about what the targets are saying.

 

[Varminterror]

The effect of a 20 or even 50 fps variation in velocity on 100yd test is noise.

100% - within the context of 100yrds.

But given enough air under the bullet, sensitivity to velocity inconsistencies can become a significant factor - here’s a 24fps ES string of 15 (bottom 3 were sighters, added .2mil, sent 12 more) in the green circle vs. a 78fps ES in the blue box at 875yrds. Creed vs. Grendel, so the inherent sensitivity was higher in the blue box than the green circle, but the influence on group shape was pretty telling.

 

[KMW 1954]

” Not a single respondent called me out on the loads looking to all be exactly the same, not a single respondent stated the groups were too similar to differentiate. EVERY response suggested nodes showing up one place or another, despite the fact every shot was the same jump and same charge weight.

Was I one of those foolish idiots?

 

[JFrank]

How dare you..

 

[Webster]

How dare you..

176 replies to explain what a small group looks like. Will it ever end.

 

[Varminterror]

Was I one of those foolish idiots?

lol, not that I recall, amigo. Unless you use a different user name elsewhere.

 

[209jones]

To me a new barrel or a new bullet or a new powder or case is the same as a new gun, they all need to be tested out. With some experience, you develop some knowledge of how things will probably go, doesn't mean they will, doesn't mean they won't. I chrono a ladder while looking for pressure to start with, and shoot a target to see how that looks while I'm doing it. By the time I'm done, I have an idea how that powder burns and how pressure is building, a rough idea on speed to expect for that projectile in that gun. Most of the time, if I add powder, I add speed, sometimes not as much as I'd expect, sometimes more, occasionally some shots are the same or less than the previous. So, I take all that for what it is, and look at what it did on paper, are they going where they were supposed to, fairly consistently? Does it represent what I wanted to see? Is there a trend to what's happening on paper? If there is an obviously consistent area, I go back and work with that a bit, see how it holds up for consistency within the parameters I want or expect. I don't usually bother with chrono'ing it the second go round, I already have a rough idea of how fast it is, I just want to see what it does on the target., I may not use it again til I have "finalized" the load, just to see how that looks then, and/or to use it as a starting point for the ballistic calculator, if I want to..

Seems to me any time I test multiple charge wts or seating depths, that's a ladder, as I'm changing something in steps. With variabilities in temps, air pressure, humidity, I'll have variances from day to day, even in a few hours on the same day, and then there is me, who is consistent one minute and not the next, who can guess pretty close on wind today, then later in the day, can't figure it out, or vice versa. Ya, you can record some of it and graph it out, and you might be close for 1 out of 5 days a week, and you can calculate various possiblities for variables. In the end, ya gotta go shoot it to find out if you, the gun and all those possibilities can meet your goals and expectations that day, or not.

Then there is tomorrow, full of more possibilities. Relax, learn enough about variables to understand what exists, try to minimize what you can control, to the extent you can, don't over think it, don't try to compute it, just do the best you can on your end, and look at the target, to get all the answers you need.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Targets don’t lie, but we can lie to ourselves about what the targets are saying.

And others apparently....
They probably didnt pick up on your "trick" because who would expect someone to do that? And why? Obviously your groups were inconsistent enough that guys thought they were different loads.

 

[FTR_Mojo]

As a personal exploration, I trolled another forum last fall under a different user name and posted threads asking for help on my load dev: in one thread, I shot the same load, nothing different at all, into 10x 3 shot groups on a target board which looked like an OCW test at 300yrds (I usually do OCW’s instead of coloring bullets, just because I’m lazy), and the other thread, I posted 10x 5 shot groups, again, the exact same load for all 50 shots, in a grid marked with what would be seating depth/bullet jumps - in both threads, I asked what load I should pick based on that test.

Do you still have those images? It would be really interesting to see them.