284 Win with "the verticals"

[Travelor]

Friends of mine that shoot 1000 yards with me are trying to use the 284 Winchester cartridge with Berger 180 grain hybrids and 175 Sierra MK's. They shoot great, but all seem to have 1 or 2 out the bottom of the groups (in the 8 ring) in a 20 shot string. They are about to give up due to this vertical problem.

They are shooting with Lapua or Winchester cases, BR-2 primers and +/- 54.5 grains of H4831SC with 175-180 grain bullets with BAT actions and Krieger barrels in the 30"-32" lengths in professionally built guns.

They swear that their ES's are in the 20 fps range, but it seems to me that the lows are due to the rounds having lower velocity outside of 20 fps. Possibly incomplete ignition and a LRM primer may cure?

Ideas of the cause and cure? The reason I ask is: one, I would like to help them as I think the resolution is something simple; and, two, that I am having a 284 built for 1000 yards and these different shooters experiencing consistent low shots is worrying me. I have bulelts, cases, dies and powder (H4831SC) bought and awaiting the gun.

Thanks,
George

 

[BoydAllen]

What have they tried to cure this? Were they willing to try your suggestions?

 

[JHardy]

George:

You clearly stated your friends' problems. A 20 ES is not good at 1000 yards and will take you out of where you want to be on the 1000 yd BR target, the 1000 F-Class target, and even the 1000 NRA prone target.

The very first key in getting your ES down in the single digit area (especially the low single digits) is accuracy in your power charge. I can't express this enough. I use a Charge master to dispense the desired charge (which is almost always a little low) then I take the pan from the Charge Master and pour the charge in the the pan sitting on my Acculab digital scale which measures to .02 grains (or so they say). At any rate, I try to charge my cases exactly correct, down to one kernnel of powder, as best I can.

After you have the fundamental element of an exact powder charge taken care of, you need to make sure your ignition is very consistent. As an aside, all Lapua brass is not made the same! I have had 6BR brass where the flash hole was so uniform that I did not want to touch it. However, most of the time, I uniform the flash hole. I do not uniform the primer pockets until after the first fireing. The most uniform ignition will come with mild primers like the Wolf/Russian -- the term Magnum with those primers is more a reference to a thick cup which helps you find higher nodes without primer problems.

Part of the low ES formula is uniform bullet pull, also called bullet release. You CANNOT get that with necks that are not uniform, and the best way to get neck uniformity is to neck turn.

Pay attention to your neck chamfer. This is the last place the bullet lives before entering the barrel. You want it to enter exactly the same without any deviation in how the bullet marries up with the groves and lands. Perfect chamfers are what you are looking for. Treat your neck chamfers with the same respect and protection you give your crowns.

Bullets that are uniform base to ogive helps keep the prerssures the same as the bullet engages the lands -- even when you shoot off the lands. That is part of the low ES package. There are many more items in prep that can enhance your low ES package, but these are just a few.

Does all this matter? As I write, I am looking at a perserved letter written to me on December 16, 2002. It says "Dear Jim, In my over 60 years in the bench rest game, I have found the following to be true. Accuracy is the result of a multitude of tremendous trifles. Sincerely, Ferris Pindell." Nuff said.

I hope this helps a little,
Jim Hardy

 

[Steve Blair]

I obtained pretty good results with 4831SC but have better ES with IMR 7828 SSC. I use the same powder setup Jim does and weigh as close as I can get, usually right on. My .284 chamber reamer cuts a .313 neck and I turn the weight-sorted, prepped Winchester brass to a loaded neck of .309. Wolf KVB-7M primers are slightly hotter than KVB-7 and give me more consistent ignition. 7828 also works best in full pressure loads. All of this results in 10-14 ES, 4-6 SD from my 29" Brux in a Borden Tube Gun receiver shooting Berger 180 Hybrids. There is no significant vertical component in my targets. Now, if I could just come to terms with the wind.

 

[camac]

George:

You clearly stated your friends' problems. A 20 ES is not good at 1000 yards and will take you out of where you want to be on the 1000 yd BR target, the 1000 F-Class target, and even the 1000 NRA prone target.

The very first key in getting your ES down in the single digit area (especially the low single digits) is accuracy in your power charge. I can't express this enough. I use a Charge master to dispense the desired charge (which is almost always a little low) then I take the pan from the Charge Master and pour the charge in the the pan sitting on my Acculab digital scale which measures to .02 grains (or so they say). At any rate, I try to charge my cases exactly correct, down to one kernnel of powder, as best I can.

After you have the fundamental element of an exact powder charge taken care of, you need to make sure your ignition is very consistent. As an aside, all Lapua brass is not made the same! I have had 6BR brass where the flash hole was so uniform that I did not want to touch it. However, most of the time, I uniform the flash hole. I do not uniform the primer pocketss until after the first fireing. The most uniform ignition will come with mild primers like the Wolf/Russian -- the term Magnum with those primers is more a reference to a thick cup which helps you find higher nodes without primer problems.

Part of the low ES formula is uniform bullet pull, also called bullet release. You CANNOT get that with necks that are not uniform, and the best way to get neck uniformity is to neck turn.

Pay attention to your neck chamfer. This is the last place the bullet lives before entering the barrel. You want it to enter exactly the same without any deviation in how the bullet marries up with the groves and lands. Perfect chamfers are what you are looking for. Treat your neck chamfers with the same respect and protection you give your crowns.

Bullets that are uniform base to ogive helps keep the prerssures the same as the bullet engages the lands -- even when you shoot off the lands. That is part of the low ES package. There are many more items in prep that can enhance your low ES package, but these are just a few.

Does all this matter? As I write, I am looking at a perserved letter writen to me on December 16, 2002. It says "Dear Jim, In my over 60 years in the bench rest game, I have found the following to be true. Accuracy is the result of a multitude of tremendous trifles. Sincerely, Ferris Pindell." Nuff said.

I hope this helps a little,
Jim Hardy

+1 on ALL this.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I guess I'll throw in a monkey wrench into this discussion.

My 284 Shehane will average about 6 inch vertical dispersion over 60 shots at 1000 yards. I load using a chargemaster, use CCI BR2 primers, I neck turn my Lapua brass, uniform primer pockets, turn necks, anneal, etc.

Now, I came up with my load shooting groups at 1000 yards, I loaded 3 loads that I thought would work and went to Bayou Rifle Club's monthly 1000 yards match. My scores were 199-12X, 197-10X, and 199-12X, for an aggregate of 595-34X with UNSORTED Lapua brass (I think that caused some lost points), by the way, the 595-34X is a new Range Record at this club.

Anyways, when I came back, and friend and I were out working up a load for his rifle, and we figured we would shoot my load over a chronograph to see how great the number were. Well, I shot a 10 shot group at 1000 yards that had 4" vertical, but when we looked at the numbers on the chronograph I had an ES of 40 fps! So, I tried it again, and this time my ES was 35 fps.

So, after that discovery I did absolutely nothing different. Why? Because it shoots! So, if you ask me if you need single digit ES to shoot at 1000 yards I will say: I'll take small groups over small ES anytime!

Now, that has been my experience, I have never had a gun that shoots single digit ES, but my guns shoot small groups. So again, I'll take small groups over small ES.

 

[bozo699]

+1 on what Jim Hardy and Mr.Pindell have stated. I would like to add that them dagum bergers are very finniky on there seating depth and that some lots have very uniform base to ogive lengths while other lots are not very uniform @ all so they need to be sorted.Good luck with your new rifle.
Wayne.

 

[JHardy]

Erik:

Those are very fine scores. If you are shooting prone at 1000, those are match winning score aggs just about anywhere. Keep doing what you are doing, but I have to ask: How did you manage to get a 40 ES? Did you leave some cleans or even higher X counts in the loading room? Did the 40 ES allow you to be the best you can be?

If you have 6" of vertical at at 1000 yards, before you fire a shot on on a NRA long range target with a 10" X ring, the X ring now measures 4" for you and your shooting package -- yet you were able to find the 10 and X rings often.

Conclusion: You are either a better rifleman than your package, or you are loading better ammo than you think (wacky chrono). Following this model of success, it would be worth extra points and Xs to do even less in you load prep. A 40 ES will kill your vertical at 1000 yards -- unless you have changed the laws of external ballistics. But, what I say or experience means nothing vs. you great results. Just don't fall into the typical prone shoters thinking that "It is the Indian and not the arrows." You are shooting far too good to not tap out the last drop in your shooting package.

Continue to favor center,
Jim Hardy

 

[JHardy]

George:

1000 yard prone or F-Class?

Thanks,
Jim Hardy

 

[Erik Cortina]

I'm shooting F-Class. I don't know how I managed 40 ES, but like I said I'm not worried about it because I'm dropping more points to wind than vertical, so I'll concentrate on shooting rather than loading at this time.

When I start dropping more points to vertical than wind, then I'll go back to the reloading room. Make sense?

I'm going to go shoot my load over the chronograph again, I'll let you guys know what I come up with this time.

 

[Travelor]

Great help fella's I'll pass it on and take all into my process for loading my new gun when it arrives.

Jim, the competition is F-Open Class.

The answers pretty much confirmed my thoughts about the verticals coming from the larger than needed ES's.

George

 

[JHardy]

Erik:

Heck, I don't blame you. The target is the target. You have clearly done a good job on reading the conditions. I still have a feeling that your ammo is better than you think, otherwise it would not tell you the truth and you would be off call. The bottom line (accuracy at 1000) is the bottom line, and you have found it.

Shoot deep Xs,
Jim Hardy

 

[JHardy]

George:

Here is why I asked what discipline you shoot. I shoot long range prone, and I sling up VERY tight in the gun. I am a big guy and I don't even notice the recoil of my 284 Shehane. I get almost directly behind and on top of my gun and the recoil is at 12:00. I rarely have any vertical issues unless I point them there, but they are on call.

When I was shooting F-Class Open a long time ago prior to the .5 targets, I shot my 1000 yd BR gun in 300 WSM. If I held on tight, and hard in the shoulder, it hammered. If I shot it like a 6mm, it would give me vertical. One thing to consider is that late in a 20 shot string, you must maintain your shot discipline (doing everything exactly the same) or you drop a shot high or low with a gun that has some substantial recoil.

I have discussed this exact issue with other F-Class shooters who have told me that they cannot shot their heavy recoil F-Open guns with the same technique as their Dashers.

Of course, this is just food for thought, but it is worth looking into. An easy fix -- once you realize the problem -- if that is the problem.

Let us know the outcome as it is a very interesting issue to ponder.


Jim Hardy

 

[Steve Blair]

I concur on hold, Jim. Almost 7000 rounds through caliber .50 BMG rifles has taught me that a hard hold is crucial to long-range accuracy. Even firing my Eliseo with the .308 barrel and 210 Bergers at 2600 requires a solid, consistent technique. Any deviation produces vertical dispersion.

 

[falconpilot]

George,

Looking back into my reloading notes, all my loads where running ES of less than 20, and SD less than 10, so I know that reloading is not my problem. I've changed a few things up, and I'll test the 284 again when I find the heart to do so. I've fought the damn thing(284 Shehane and 284) for over a year now, and I've just decided to put it down for a while and shoot my Dasher. It bugs me to no end shooting with all the guys that I'm shooting with, and watch time and time again from the pits while these guys are shooting 20-shot strings with less than 5" of vertical using the 284's. Ken Dickerman, Rick Jensen, David Mann, Herb Edwards, Dean Morris..all these guys are shooting lights out, so I know it's got to be in my setup.

I have done some work to my Farely rest..I tighted up the top quite a bit. I've also went back and nect turn my no-turn neck brass..My loaded rounds for the .315 no-turn chamber are running exactly .312 on a loaded round. I'm turning my neck to give me a .310 loaded round and will see if that helps...I'll keep you posted when I find the heart and time to mess with the 284 some more....

Jhardy..To anwser your question...I'm shooting F-Class...

Jim

 

[Erik Cortina]

Just got back from the range doing a little practice. 10 shot group at 1000 yards, 5 1/2" vertical, 35 fps. ES.

Maybe the chronograph is just lying to me, but whatever, it shoots, so I'm keeping the load.

Fowler, if there was a only way to load 180 VLD's into your Dasher you would be unbeatable my friend! ;D

 

[falconpilot]

Erik,

Thanks...I'm working on it!!! ;D

See you in a couple of weekends...Maybe the winds won't blow gail force this year...

BTW...Here is a picture of the vertical that I'm suffering from my Dasher... 1000 yards btw...

Jim

 

[Erik Cortina]

Nice vertical! See you then.

 

[bozo699]

Jim,
Your a funny man..... Vertical?
I have more vertical than that @100 yards LOL.
Seriously thats great. Good luck to the both of you.
Wayne.

 

[Lbart]

Travelor,
FWIW,I believe a few items should be considered that haven't been brought up.
Up and down drafts over berms, etc . What is the range topography like?
Hot/cold pockets of air moving across the range, particularly in early morning.
Side wind vertical components.
Scope/rifle problems.
Loading problems, it is easy to miss measure a change, particularly if you use a digital scale. I watched a world class shooter fire a low 6 at 1k followed by a high 6. He was dumping charges. One under charged, one over charged. With a digital; if your measure hangs up and you don't catch the one grain difference you can wind up a grain off thinking you measured to 0.01 of a grain when you are a grain off.
Trigger puller errors

Larry Bartholome