280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's (Picture added)

[BlackKnight755]

Looking for a starting point on my 280 AI. I am wanting to try some of Bergers 180 VLD's and I need to know where to start. I want to try H 4350, H 4831, H 1000, VV N 160, VV N 560 and maybe some R 22. Out of these powders I have listed, what would you start with? I have them all so it doesn't matter where I start. I am looking for a powder that will hopefully not be real temperature sensative and that will push the 180 Berger to 600 yards accurately.

I am doing some competition shooting at this yardage and it will not be a hunting load that I'm looking for. I am shooting a 24 inch barrel with a 10 twist barrel, Nosler brass (3 firings) and CCI BR2 primers. I know that Berger suggests a 9 twist barrel for the 180's so do you all think I am waisting my time with the 180's and should I drop back to the 168's with the 10 twist barrel for bullet stability?

Let me know what you think, maybe you all can save me some time and components. If you think I need to go with the 168's say so. Thanks, BK.

 

[cmillard]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's

you will never know if the twist works until you try it and see for yourself. i would stick with the H1000 and 4831. the others--4350 might be a little fast burning and the others are temp sensitive.

 

[BlackKnight755]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's

Cole,
Thanks for the reply. I think I will take your advice and start with H 1000. I use it in my 300 RUM with great success and I have found that it is very stable in varying temperatures. Thanks again and if anyone has any other input, please let me know. BK

 

[RDavies]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's

I,m shooting a 284 Improved and my barrel is closer to 10" twist than the 9" I ordered. It doesnt like 180s, loves the 168s but you might as well try. I love H4350 and I think this will be good for the 168s, but as Chip said, H4831sc would be better for the heavier bullets in this sized case. Just buy one tub and try it.

 

[Bigame1]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's

Try 63.0 grains of Retumbo with the 168 VLD outstanding accuracy in my 280 AI and it is a devastating load on Deer. I use Nosler brass CCI 200 or WLR primers one note though if you are going to use this in cold weather then step up to a magnum primer. I get around 3,000 fps. out of a 26" tube so you should be in the 29-2950 area.

 

[expiper]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's

Blackie....what were u shooting ,,you have three fireings on your brass??? were they in the 175-180 class???....I wouldnt even try the 180's (either Berger or Sierra ) with a 10 twist ....just my limited experience with em....and OBTW..4831 is the perfect powder....Roger

 

[drop_point]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's

It seems to me that the 140s are the sweet spot for drop/wind drift in the .280 AI. I'm running them with 63.0 gr of RL22, Nosler brass. Its a 25" 1:9" bbl shooting in the .2s and .3s

 

[kyreloader]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's

It seems to me that the 140s are the sweet spot for drop/wind drift in the .280 AI. I'm running them with 63.0 gr of RL22, Nosler brass. Its a 25" 1:9" bbl shooting in the .2s and .3s

How do you figure? To what distances? If you shoot far enough, the BC of the 180g bullets will win.

 

[drop_point]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's

Here's some numbers using Point Blank (note the dope from my rifle):

The 180s go about 2650-2700.

About 32 minutes of elevation dope at 1k, and about 6 minutes of drift at 1k per mph of cross wind.

140s go about 3200.

About 24 minutes of dope at 1k, and about 7 minutes of wind at 1k.

168s are a good compromise in 280 AI.

They will run about 2900, 28 minutes of dope at 1k, right about 6 minutes of wind.

Out to 1k, I'll shoot 140s. If I were shooting further, then I'd go heavier. But we do know the 140s will shoot in a 1:10 and they are lasers.

At 600, the 140 is going to have a great advantage.

140s need 10 minutes of elevation, 2 minutes of drift.
180s need 14 minutes of elevation, 2 minutes of drift.
168s need 12 minutes of elevation, 2 minutes of drift.

So it seems to me, the 140s would be the best match for the OP. I'll take less recoil and flatter trajectory for fractional change in drift from bullet to bullet.

 

[kyreloader]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's

Real world numbers with my 284 Shehane which has similar case capacity to the 280AI. I shoot 180g Berger Hybrids at 2950 fps from my 30 inch Shilen barrel. If you extrapolate that velocity to the 140g Berger VLDs using the formula that Laurie outlines here (http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3768485.0.html ), you get a muzzle velocity of 3346 fps. Using those velocities with a the G7 BC numbers of both bullets (0.345 of 180s and 0.261 of the 140s) in JBM, you get these results.

Drop at 600 yards, 180s-10.9 MOA, 140s-8.8 MOA
Drift at 600 yards, 180s-2.8 MOA, 140s-3.2 MOA

Drop at 1000 yards, 180s-24.2 MOA, 140s-20.9 MOA
Drift at 1000 yards, 180s-5.3 MOA, 140s-6.2

Winds drift is what wins competitions and is the hardest environmental to adjust for when shooting BR/Fclass. It takes the 180g Hybrid only 300 yards to be better than the 140g bullet (1.3 vs 1.4 MOA). Drop is easy to compensate for on a known distance range/competition, so I am less concerned with the increase drop of the 180g bullets. On a unknown course/competition, the drop figures might be important and could argue for the 140s.The advantage of the 180g bullet at 1000 yards is nearly 1 MOA. That turns that 10 into the 9 and that is enough for me to shoot the 180s in Fclass.

The 168g is a good compromise. Extrapolating out the same way above, MV would be 3054 fps. Again, it takes the 180g 300 yards to be better than the 168s and it takes the 168g takes 400 yards to be better than the 140s in regards to wind drift.


Drop at 600 yards, 10.3 MOA
Drift at 600 yards, 3.0 MAO

Drop at 1000 yards, 23.4 MOA
Drift at 1000 yards, 5.6 MOA.

All of this argument goes away however with the original poster with his 10 twist. The 168g bullets would be the best bet.

I cant like the 140 class bullets for long range target shooting.

I would use the 168s with H4831/H4350.

 

[BlackKnight755]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's

Thanks everyone for the GREAT information. Some of you have put alot of time and effort into posting loads of information (no pun intended). From what I have read and from talking to Berger, I think I will start with the 168's. I am pleased with the performance that I get with my 140's but I am getting some drift in the wind. I know that I cant throw wind reading out the window but I am hoping that I can tighten my groups up some if I go to a higher BC bullet.

Below is a target that I shot the otherday. You will notice that the horizontal spread (approximately 2 inches) is what I am looking to tighten up, the vertical is great (less than 1/2 inch). It was 90 degrees, humidity was very high and the wind was 4-6 mph from 2-4 o'clock. The load was 140 grn Accubonds with 62.5 grns of Norma MRP. This was shot from a bench with bags only, I didnt have my rest with me. Distance was 600 yards, I had 4 targets that looked almost identical as far as horizontal and vertical spread. I am hoping that the 168's will tighten the horizontal up some more. Let me know if I am doing something wrong and I'll do something different.

Thanks again for the info!

 

[expiper]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's


we should be asking you for advice...groups like that (5 shot) are just what everyone is looking for at 600!!!...your gun/load combo is working very good ......Roger

 

[BlackKnight755]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's

we should be asking you for advice...groups like that (5 shot) are just what everyone is looking for at 600!!!...your gun/load combo is working very good ......Roger

I didnt mean to omit the fact that all the groups were three shot groups. I was shooting the three shot groups to keep the barrel as cool as I could. After I got to thinking about it last night after I posted the target, less than 2 inch groups at 600 yards, that was repeated 4 times, with the wind not cooperating wasn't all that bad. I guess that would be less than 1/3 MOA. And if I took out the horizontal part, that would be a 1/2 inch group at 600! Not bad for a hunting rifle I guess. BK

 

[limbic]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's

I don't think you will be able to change that much. That is an ideal load for a hunting gun. 1/3MOA is really really strong. I would change the seating depth and see if that helps first. I wouldn't ever change that powder load.

What does that load look like at 200 or 300?

 

[BlackKnight755]

280 AI 180 or 168 Berger VLD's

It does great all the way to 800, although the wind plays a big part out past 500. 1 ragged hole at 100 and 200, cloverleafs at 300 and 400 then the wind kicks in at 500 and beyond. The vertical is ok but the horizontal opens the groups up in the wind. I'll shoot a couple at 200 and 300 and post them, maybe Sunday I'll get them on here. Also if I heat the barrel up I get some opened groups.

 

[limbic]

You have to have a really heavy barrel to prevent the groups from changing much when the temps rise. It doesn't take much wind to really throw a good group in the trash.

my 6mm bullets drift 13" at 600y with a full value 5mph wind.


Also slower bullets have longer flight time and have more time to be affected by the wind. It is hard to find a good medium between acceptable MV and BC. I cant get 180's fast enough in my 280AI to be of benefit. I use 160-168

 

[Count_points- later]

Looking for a starting point on my 280 AI. I am wanting to try some of Bergers 180 VLD's and I need to know where to start. I want to try H 4350, H 4831, H 1000, VV N 160, VV N 560 and maybe some R 22. Out of these powders I have listed, what would you start with? I have them all so it doesn't matter where I start. I am looking for a powder that will hopefully not be real temperature sensative and that will push the 180 Berger to 600 yards accurately.

I am doing some competition shooting at this yardage and it will not be a hunting load that I'm looking for. I am shooting a 24 inch barrel with a 10 twist barrel, Nosler brass (3 firings) and CCI BR2 primers. I know that Berger suggests a 9 twist barrel for the 180's so do you all think I am waisting my time with the 180's and should I drop back to the 168's with the 10 twist barrel for bullet stability?

Let me know what you think, maybe you all can save me some time and components. If you think I need to go with the 168's say so. Thanks, BK.

i shoot a 168 vld hunting bullet from my 280 AI !! Have you experimented with Alliant powders ? I shot the 4831 but I found that I got more speed and more consistency out of RL 19 I can hold a .094 group ( of course not every time ) at 100 yards of 4 shots !

 

[Todd Morley]

I have a 280 AI with a 27" barrel. I load the 180-grain Berger VLD Hunting bullet in front of 62.2 grains of Reloder 26 (and a Federal 210M primer), which gives me 3,037 fps at the muzzle (per a MagnetoSpeed chronograph). I also have a 280 Rem. with a 24" barrel. I load the 168-grain Berger VLDH in front of 55.6 grains of Reloder 19 (and a Winchester Large Rifle primer), yielding 2,840 fps MV. According to QuickLoad, the AI recipe reaches 87% of the SAAMI max allowed pressure; the Rem, 100.6%. (I saw no pressure signs developing these loads in 30-50 degrees F weather.) Both loads are 1/2 MOA or better. I've shot several mule deer (into the boiler room) with the 168. DRT. I think you'll find penetration with either bullet very satisfactory. See for example the gel-block test video at

.

As always, you should start load development with a mild powder charge and work up gradually.