I am a newbie. I was just wondering why you don't see .277 based cartridges in the various types of competition discussed here? I understand that there is not a large selection of match bullets in this caliber but I am just surprised that no one has taken on the challenge or if someone has taken this on I would like to hear about their experience. I have always hunted with a 270 win. and was just curious?
.277 in matches?
- Thread starter aixenmemphis
- Start date
Exactly. There is no mathematical/scientific reason why .277 cartridges haven't been adopted for target shooting. The few .277 cartridges that have typically existed are well-regarded for hunting, but somehow never made the leap to target shooting popularity.
Cartridges above and below it are doing well though...
Be the trendsetter! Have to wonder what a high BC .277 bullet might do at long range from say a .308 necked down...
Naw, it's just too easy to chamber for 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm or .308... Great target bullets abound in those calibers.
Regards, Guy
Cartridges above and below it are doing well though...
Be the trendsetter! Have to wonder what a high BC .277 bullet might do at long range from say a .308 necked down...
Naw, it's just too easy to chamber for 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm or .308... Great target bullets abound in those calibers. Regards, Guy
I started with this question because I heard somewhere that Berger might be in the process of making a .277 vld bullet. I also have two rem 700 short actions to play with so I thought of building on one of them and chambering a barrel in 270 Reading which is the 270/308.
Call Eric at Berger and tell them you want a .277 bullet. He is in the process of making 130 and 150 gr now. He said he would work on a 110-118gr for the 6.8 spc if there was enough interest in 3 gun or highpower.
Also try the 120gr Barnes solid. It has a BC of .428
Also try the 120gr Barnes solid. It has a BC of .428
C.N.K.
The 270 came about in the 150s and 1960s. It was the favorite of Oconner. Many wildcats were developed around the 277 bullet. Gibbs, Ackley, Page all experimented with the 277. There were basically 3 bullet weights available 90 grains, 130 grains and 150 grains. It was compeating with the 25-06 as a baby brother and the 280 and 30-06 as a big brother. The variability of bullets in the 280 and 30-06 made them more popular with the big game hunters. The smaller capacity cases developed off the 308 in 22 and 6mm produced better varmint cartridges. The europeans developed the 6.5 calibers and the Americans adapted it to their use. It was a superior long range caliber because of bullet sectiuonal density and balistic coficient. The 6.5 Remington magnum and the .264 Win Mag are such barrel burners they pretty much came and went, to big for varmints and to small for elk. The 277 diameter is a great size for whitetails and mule deer but again there are better cartridges for elk and bear. It was loved for its lighter recoil and flatter trajectory. The 7mms with their slightly larger and heavier bullets edged out the 277s. I am sure VLD bullets could be developed in 277. But why we already have 6mm and 6.5 available thet will work just fine for killing paper. The cost for a company like Berger or Sierra to produce a high volume carbide bullet swaging die set would cost about $40,000.00. That would take a lot of bullet sales at about 5 cents profit per bullet to pay for itself.
You may see some bullet maker take a chance and come out with either a 25 caliber or 277 caliber in an attempt to be competetive with the 6mm and/or 6.5.
Rustystud
The 270 came about in the 150s and 1960s. It was the favorite of Oconner. Many wildcats were developed around the 277 bullet. Gibbs, Ackley, Page all experimented with the 277. There were basically 3 bullet weights available 90 grains, 130 grains and 150 grains. It was compeating with the 25-06 as a baby brother and the 280 and 30-06 as a big brother. The variability of bullets in the 280 and 30-06 made them more popular with the big game hunters. The smaller capacity cases developed off the 308 in 22 and 6mm produced better varmint cartridges. The europeans developed the 6.5 calibers and the Americans adapted it to their use. It was a superior long range caliber because of bullet sectiuonal density and balistic coficient. The 6.5 Remington magnum and the .264 Win Mag are such barrel burners they pretty much came and went, to big for varmints and to small for elk. The 277 diameter is a great size for whitetails and mule deer but again there are better cartridges for elk and bear. It was loved for its lighter recoil and flatter trajectory. The 7mms with their slightly larger and heavier bullets edged out the 277s. I am sure VLD bullets could be developed in 277. But why we already have 6mm and 6.5 available thet will work just fine for killing paper. The cost for a company like Berger or Sierra to produce a high volume carbide bullet swaging die set would cost about $40,000.00. That would take a lot of bullet sales at about 5 cents profit per bullet to pay for itself.
You may see some bullet maker take a chance and come out with either a 25 caliber or 277 caliber in an attempt to be competetive with the 6mm and/or 6.5.
Rustystud
Spotcheck_Billy
Rustystud,
Some well-thought out facts, but I'd like to comment -
The .270 Winchester was introduced back in 1925 by Winchester in its Model 54 bolt rifle and immediately became popular out West for mule deer and antelope hunting. It gained even more popularity when Winchester came out with the Model 70 around 1936. There are several Model 54's and Model 70's that have been kicking around in my family since they came out. I live in the central Rockies, and have noticed over the years that the .270 has been next in popularity to the venerable .30-'06 for big game hunting. Remington made an abortive attempt to compete with the .270 after WWII when they introduced their .280, but for several reasons including factory loadings at less than optimum pressures, the .280 failed to really take hold. I'll certainly agree that there are a lot more 6.5mm, 7mm, and .30 cal. target bullets around and that fact alone is most responsible for the popularity of these bores over the .270 for competition shooting and wildcat cartridge development.
__
I understand that Sierra offers .277" MatchKings in both 115gr. and 135gr. weights. Has anybody out there tried them?
Some well-thought out facts, but I'd like to comment -
The .270 Winchester was introduced back in 1925 by Winchester in its Model 54 bolt rifle and immediately became popular out West for mule deer and antelope hunting. It gained even more popularity when Winchester came out with the Model 70 around 1936. There are several Model 54's and Model 70's that have been kicking around in my family since they came out. I live in the central Rockies, and have noticed over the years that the .270 has been next in popularity to the venerable .30-'06 for big game hunting. Remington made an abortive attempt to compete with the .270 after WWII when they introduced their .280, but for several reasons including factory loadings at less than optimum pressures, the .280 failed to really take hold. I'll certainly agree that there are a lot more 6.5mm, 7mm, and .30 cal. target bullets around and that fact alone is most responsible for the popularity of these bores over the .270 for competition shooting and wildcat cartridge development.
__
I understand that Sierra offers .277" MatchKings in both 115gr. and 135gr. weights. Has anybody out there tried them?
Spotcheck Billy:
You are absolutely correct about the development,time table) of the 270. Why they gained popularity in the 1950s and 60s was the development of slow burning powders and better bullets. The first 270s were shooting 160-175 grain flat based bullets.
I never owned a 270 winchester. I had everything else larger and smaller. Last year my son said he wanted a 270. I asked why because we had all the other calibers we needed,22,6mm,30 cal, and .375 along with the dies, powder and bullets. We could hunt anything in America from mice to moose. My son said exactly, "he wanted his own gun and he wanted a 270". I asked if he wanted a stainless/synthetic Remington 700. He said "no I want a Kimber in blue steel and walnut". I bought him a Kimber 8400 in 270 and a Lepould 4.5 X 14 AO scope. He is shooting Scirocco 130s ahead of 60 grains of H-4831. They are running 3212fps and shooting .5 at 100 yards. The gun is very pleasurable to shoot. From Christmas to new years, the last 6 days of our deer season my son shot 6 deer.
I will agree that is is a great cartridge and with the right bullets it could be a great long rande target cartridge.
Rustystud
You are absolutely correct about the development,time table) of the 270. Why they gained popularity in the 1950s and 60s was the development of slow burning powders and better bullets. The first 270s were shooting 160-175 grain flat based bullets.
I never owned a 270 winchester. I had everything else larger and smaller. Last year my son said he wanted a 270. I asked why because we had all the other calibers we needed,22,6mm,30 cal, and .375 along with the dies, powder and bullets. We could hunt anything in America from mice to moose. My son said exactly, "he wanted his own gun and he wanted a 270". I asked if he wanted a stainless/synthetic Remington 700. He said "no I want a Kimber in blue steel and walnut". I bought him a Kimber 8400 in 270 and a Lepould 4.5 X 14 AO scope. He is shooting Scirocco 130s ahead of 60 grains of H-4831. They are running 3212fps and shooting .5 at 100 yards. The gun is very pleasurable to shoot. From Christmas to new years, the last 6 days of our deer season my son shot 6 deer.
I will agree that is is a great cartridge and with the right bullets it could be a great long rande target cartridge.
Rustystud
Spotcheck_Billy
Rustystud,
Your son's .270 load is a great one. I've been loading between 60 and 62 grains of H4831 behind 130 grain bullets in my .270's for over four decades with excellent results. I remember my dad and several uncles sitting around at the family cabin back in the early 1950's loading the old mil-surp 20mm AAA powder that Bruce Hodgon bought from the military, called it 4831, and sold in wooden kegs for IIRC about $1.00 a pound. Several years later,
by the time I was old enough to hunt big game with my own hand-me-down M70 most of this mil-surp powder was gone and Hodgdon was selling the "Newly Manufactured" version in the cardboard containers for a lot more money. But it worked just as well as the old stuff, even used the same loading data.
I don't want to get into an argument, but I must take issue with your statement about the original .270 Winchester loads being available only with heavy bullets. The fact is, when Winchester first introduced this round back in 1925 the only factory loading available was the 130 gr. spitzer bullet @ a published velocity of 3160 fs. We've still got a box or two of these original Winchester factory loads and a box of the old Western Cartridge Company 130's sitting in a cabinet up at the old cabin, but nobody in the family will use them, considering that they're over 75 years old. Probably best, since they must have some value to a cartridge collector by now. Probably never sell 'em, however. I can't even remember seeing any US factory ammo available in anything other that the 130 gr. spitzer until about the very late 1950's or early sixties when the 150 grain bullet was offered. It wasn't very popular as far as I can recollect.
Anyway, I still hold a place in my heart for the .270, if only for the pleasant memories it brings back. Over the years I've owned several '06's, a .300WM or two, the 7x57, 6.5x55, 7-08, 6mm Rem,.243, .300 H&H, .308, all of them hunting rifles, and while the old .270 hasn't been the most accurate or the most powerful I still enjoy shooting it more than the others!
Someday I'd like to be able to add a .277" bore to my stable of competition rifles, but I'll have to wait on the bullet manufacturers to bring out the suitable bullets, and some more adventurous wildcatters to do the cartridge development. I figure that with a bullet diameter that's right between the 6.5 and the 7mm's how could it go wrong?
Your son's .270 load is a great one. I've been loading between 60 and 62 grains of H4831 behind 130 grain bullets in my .270's for over four decades with excellent results. I remember my dad and several uncles sitting around at the family cabin back in the early 1950's loading the old mil-surp 20mm AAA powder that Bruce Hodgon bought from the military, called it 4831, and sold in wooden kegs for IIRC about $1.00 a pound. Several years later,
by the time I was old enough to hunt big game with my own hand-me-down M70 most of this mil-surp powder was gone and Hodgdon was selling the "Newly Manufactured" version in the cardboard containers for a lot more money. But it worked just as well as the old stuff, even used the same loading data.
I don't want to get into an argument, but I must take issue with your statement about the original .270 Winchester loads being available only with heavy bullets. The fact is, when Winchester first introduced this round back in 1925 the only factory loading available was the 130 gr. spitzer bullet @ a published velocity of 3160 fs. We've still got a box or two of these original Winchester factory loads and a box of the old Western Cartridge Company 130's sitting in a cabinet up at the old cabin, but nobody in the family will use them, considering that they're over 75 years old. Probably best, since they must have some value to a cartridge collector by now. Probably never sell 'em, however. I can't even remember seeing any US factory ammo available in anything other that the 130 gr. spitzer until about the very late 1950's or early sixties when the 150 grain bullet was offered. It wasn't very popular as far as I can recollect.
Anyway, I still hold a place in my heart for the .270, if only for the pleasant memories it brings back. Over the years I've owned several '06's, a .300WM or two, the 7x57, 6.5x55, 7-08, 6mm Rem,.243, .300 H&H, .308, all of them hunting rifles, and while the old .270 hasn't been the most accurate or the most powerful I still enjoy shooting it more than the others!
Someday I'd like to be able to add a .277" bore to my stable of competition rifles, but I'll have to wait on the bullet manufacturers to bring out the suitable bullets, and some more adventurous wildcatters to do the cartridge development. I figure that with a bullet diameter that's right between the 6.5 and the 7mm's how could it go wrong?
Wildcat Bullets from Alberta Canada has a good selection of 270 bullets with better BC's than the available factory stuff.
http://www.wildcatbullets.homestead.com/
Send Richard Graves an E-mail with any question you have and he will be more than happy to help you out.
wildcatbullets@hotmail.com
http://www.wildcatbullets.homestead.com/
Send Richard Graves an E-mail with any question you have and he will be more than happy to help you out.
wildcatbullets@hotmail.com
I started this thread in hopes of gaining enough info to make a decision on my next build. I have also spoken, via email, with Kirby Allen about the subject. He builds the Allen mags and does one in 270. After our discussion I have decided to go ahead and build a 270/284. Mr. Allen is a big proponent of the Wildcat bullets and they do have a wonderful selection of .277 bullets including 150's, 160's, and 169.5's. I have the action and the plan and am just waiting to save up the rest of the money for everything to happen. I think this project will be a fun one.
Spotcheck_Billy
C.N.K.,
Please keep us posted on the development of your new project. It really sounds interesting, and I think has lots of promise.
Are you building for long range competition or hunting? I'm shooting a 6.5-284 in tactical competitions using bullets from several makers, all between 139 to 142 grains, all with muzzle velocities hovering around the 3000 fps mark where they seem to do the best. Figuring that a .277" bullet probably will have to weigh in the 160+ grain area in order for it to have a competitive BC will the .284 parent case have enough powder capacity to launch a bullet of this weight,at a reasonable pressure) fast enough to be competitive? I'm not so sure, but just doing the calculations in my head it looks as if a WSM or SAUM case would be more effective at this bullet weight.
Just a thought. I don't mean to sound discouraging.
Please keep us posted on the development of your new project. It really sounds interesting, and I think has lots of promise.
Are you building for long range competition or hunting? I'm shooting a 6.5-284 in tactical competitions using bullets from several makers, all between 139 to 142 grains, all with muzzle velocities hovering around the 3000 fps mark where they seem to do the best. Figuring that a .277" bullet probably will have to weigh in the 160+ grain area in order for it to have a competitive BC will the .284 parent case have enough powder capacity to launch a bullet of this weight,at a reasonable pressure) fast enough to be competitive? I'm not so sure, but just doing the calculations in my head it looks as if a WSM or SAUM case would be more effective at this bullet weight.
Just a thought. I don't mean to sound discouraging.
I plan on building this to shoot at long range,600 max) target. I do not compete but might in the future. I am a little worried about the weight of bullets that I would have to use but I love to tinker and I think that it will be a fun project. Here is a little info that I have found on the web. http://www.accuratereloading.com/270284win.html
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