260 Remington with IMR 4451

[dstoenner]

Looking for some guidance from some of you who have already been down this road. My standard load for 1000 yard F-Class is 140 Berger Hybrid with 42.5 gn H4350 in Lapua cases and BR-2 primers. With this load out of my 30 inch McGowen barrel, I am getting 2840 for my velocity and excellent accuracy.

While I have a lot of H4350 and it seems to be more available again, I am trying to be prepared as I can be. IMR4451 is supposed to be the best replacement. So I found a pound at Cabela's and yesterday gave it a test in my rifle. The max load in Hodgdon's manual is 39.5 gn but it is seated at 2.780 in the manual and I am seated at 2.970. But just to be careful I loaded up 18 at 39 and another 18 at 39.5. My idea was to shoot 3 each across the chrono and 3 5 shot groups for accuracy.

Well in the accuracy department both loads shot equal and just a little more than my standard 140 load. However the velocity was WAAAAY down. The 39 averaged 2560 and the 39.5 averaged 2590. To get this powder up in velocity to my H4350 load I would need 43.6 gn. both of these loads showed no signs of pressure.

So the question to the group is if anybody has used that much 4451 behind a 140 class bullet? I know each gun is different and I would approach this by loading 5 of a given step up to 43.5 and see if it works for velocity and pressure. I also know that I cannot assume that the curve of powder to velocity is not necessarily linear so I may get to the 2840 sooner than expected.

Just looking for anybody's experience here.

thanks

David

 

[Dos XX]

Not exactly the same, but in my .260, with Berger 130gr Hybrids, I found I used approximately .3 gr less IMR4451 than H4350. This is a mag length gun, so I know the comparison is not the same. I know of other shooters that found close to the same difference in their .260's as well.

 

[jimbo88mm]

I found a nice node with the Berger 140 hybrid and IMR 4451 out of my 30" McGowen:

43, 43.1 and 43.2 grs yield a consistent 2930 fps for me with an ambient temp in the 70-90 range.

This is with a standard 260.

Velocity results with some other bullets I've tested with IMR 4451:

140 nosler rdf: 42.8 @ 2880 fps

140 ELD: 42.8 @ 2888 fps

147 ELD: 41.9 @ 2800 fps

 

[Ringostar]

I haven't tried it in either of my 260's yet. I have tried it in my 6.5x47L. Like Russel, I had best accuracy .5gn less than my H4350 load. If your looking at Hodgdons loads for a mag length round, how did it compare to their H4350 load?

 

[dstoenner]

I found a nice node with the Berger 140 hybrid and IMR 4451 out of my 30" McGowen:

43, 43.1 and 43.2 grs yield a consistent 2930 fps for me with an ambient temp in the 70-90 range.

This is with a standard 260.

Velocity results with some other bullets I've tested with IMR 4451:

140 nosler rdf: 42.8 @ 2880 fps

140 ELD: 42.8 @ 2888 fps

147 ELD: 41.9 @ 2800 fps

Jimbo

That is good data and sort of jives with my curve fit. Do i assume you ste seated out to 2.9+ COL? If so that would be great to get another 100 fps. Going from a 26 to 30 got me about 80 fps

I am also trying nosler RDFs. They are not quite as accurate as Berger hybrids but only by .1 to .2 of an inch bigger groups at 100. I am going to shot them in the next 1000 yard match i am in next year and see if anything how they do.

Thanks for your input

David

 

[dstoenner]

I haven't tried it in either of my 260's yet. I have tried it in my 6.5x47L. Like Russel, I had best accuracy .5gn less than my H4350 load. If your looking at Hodgdons loads for a mag length round, how did it compare to their H4350 load?

I don’t load mag length unless it is a light bullet like 100 amax or 107 smk that can only do mag length so i really have nothing to compare. I am only going single load of heavy bullets for the long line. If i go midrange then i might use 130 berger hybrid.

David

 

[jimbo88mm]

Jimbo

That is good data and sort of jives with my curve fit. Do i assume you ste seated out to 2.9+ COL? If so that would be great to get another 100 fps. Going from a 26 to 30 got me about 80 fps

I am also trying nosler RDFs. They are not quite as accurate as Berger hybrids but only by .1 to .2 of an inch bigger groups at 100. I am going to shot them in the next 1000 yard match i am in next year and see if anything how they do.

Thanks for your input

David

My COL is 2.930, about 20 thou from the lands.

The RDFs are so inexpensive compared to the other bullets. I'd be curious to hear how they perform in your matches. Good Luck!

 

[Ringostar]

I don’t load mag length unless it is a light bullet like 100 amax or 107 smk that can only do mag length so i really have nothing to compare. I am only going single load of heavy bullets for the long line. If i go midrange then i might use 130 berger hybrid.

David

I wasn't saying that you were loading mag length. The load data that you had, was for a shorter round than what you are loading. Hodgdon's load for a 260 w/ 140 is 44.5gn H4350. That is the load that I used for several years in my target rifle. My 260 hunting rifle uses 140 Amax at mag length, w/ 43.0gn of H4350 for best accuracy at 200yds. I guess that my point is, I think that your safe to work your way up higher. You shouldn't have any problem getting up to 2900fps.

 

[dstoenner]

I wasn't saying that you were loading mag length. The load data that you had, was for a shorter round than what you are loading. Hodgdon's load for a 260 w/ 140 is 44.5gn H4350. That is the load that I used for several years in my target rifle. My 260 hunting rifle uses 140 Amax at mag length, w/ 43.0gn of H4350 for best accuracy at 200yds. I guess that my point is, I think that your safe to work your way up higher. You shouldn't have any problem getting up to 2900fps.

Now I understand your question. The only 140 gn bullet Hodgdon has data for is the Nosler Partition loaded at 2.780. The max for H4350 is listed at 42.0 with a velocity at 2677 and 4451 max is 39.0 with a velocity of 2631. Since I have no idea what the bearing surface of the 140 Partition is, I didn't want to venture too far without some idea of safety. I even think my 42.5 gn H4350 load for the 140 Hybrid seated out so far is very safe and a middle of the road load. Since I am just doing known distance shooting, I don't have to push it so hard and get a little more barrel life. Based on Jimbo's report above I am going to start out at 42 gn 4451 and work up .3 gns at a step to see what that looks like.

This won't happen now till next year in the spring because I have taken off my 260 barrel and put on a new 6X47 Lapua barrel to start break-in, fire forming and load development through the winter. Always a new project . When I get the 260 barrel back on I will try this out and see what I find out.

David

 

[Laurie]

Hodgdon generally shows slightly lower maximum charges for 4451 as against IMR and H4350. When I tried 4451 in 6.5 Creedmoor with a 140, results went a little the other way, 4451 needing an extra half to full grain compared to H4350 for equivalent MVs.

Trying it against the other two in an old BSA 7X57 'Hunter', it is behaving (so far) more as Hodgdon says. In terms of MVs, the order is IMR-4350, H4350, and IMR-4451 low to high, but there is at most 1gn between them in charge weights which run in the low to mid 40gn range. I need to do more though to get an idea how 4451 behaves as it approaches maximum loads / pressures. So far, it appears to be very good-natured though without a tendency to 'spike' pressures.

This is very important to us in the UK. Thanks to our masters in the EU, we lose all Hodgdon extruded (Australian ADI manufactured) powders; most Hodgdon 'spherical' (St. Marks Powder Co., FLA manufactured) and so far as I can see all IMR 'legacy' grades, ie the old Du Pont Industries powders like 4198, 3031, 4064, 4350 etc. As one of General Dynamics Valleyfield's new IMR 'Enduron' green powders, IMR-4451 will be one of the few powders in the entire Hodgdon / IMR / Winchester range that can still be imported. So we need substitutes for the ever-popular H4350 badly, 4451 being an obvious candidate. (Same for H4831sc etc for the next step up in cartridge size.)

 

[dstoenner]

Hodgdon generally shows slightly lower maximum charges for 4451 as against IMR and H4350. When I tried 4451 in 6.5 Creedmoor with a 140, results went a little the other way, 4451 needing an extra half to full grain compared to H4350 for equivalent MVs.

Trying it against the other two in an old BSA 7X57 'Hunter', it is behaving (so far) more as Hodgdon says. In terms of MVs, the order is IMR-4350, H4350, and IMR-4451 low to high, but there is at most 1gn between them in charge weights which run in the low to mid 40gn range. I need to do more though to get an idea how 4451 behaves as it approaches maximum loads / pressures. So far, it appears to be very good-natured though without a tendency to 'spike' pressures.

This is very important to us in the UK. Thanks to our masters in the EU, we lose all Hodgdon extruded (Australian ADI manufactured) powders; most Hodgdon 'spherical' (St. Marks Powder Co., FLA manufactured) and so far as I can see all IMR 'legacy' grades, ie the old Du Pont Industries powders like 4198, 3031, 4064, 4350 etc. As one of General Dynamics Valleyfield's new IMR 'Enduron' green powders, IMR-4451 will be one of the few powders in the entire Hodgdon / IMR / Winchester range that can still be imported. So we need substitutes for the ever-popular H4350 badly, 4451 being an obvious candidate. (Same for H4831sc etc for the next step up in cartridge size.)

Laurie,

Thanks for all of your observations. I also have to thank you for all of your articles in Target Shooter Magazine. I used to read it every month when it came out. I am not too happy with the "new" web based pull concept so I don't go there often.

WOW, that really sucks about being cutoff from powder sources. Are these decisions based on protectionism of the European powder production? I cannot imagine that any powder could really be "greener" than the next.

David

 

[KMart]

Laurie,


WOW, that really sucks about being cutoff from powder sources. Are these decisions based on protectionism of the European powder production? I cannot imagine that any powder could really be "greener" than the next.

David

There is one product, Dibutyl phthalate, used in the production of these powders that the European greenies are trying to get rid of.

 

[Laurie]

It's not just propellants. Any chemical or chemical compound manufactured or imported at or in excess of 1 tonne per year has gone through an evaluation process under a huge 10-year exercise called REACH. Any 'free' parts of the product that have been found wanting in toxicological, environmental, carcinogenic etc studies are looked at in a number of ways:

Can they be replaced in that product?
Are there alternative REACH compliant products to substitute for that one?
If neither of the first two apply, can the product simply be withdrawn and society manage without it?

Powders are actually amongst the last to be evaluated and there have been major impacts on farming, gardening, horticultural, pest control, industrial household etc products such as paints and cleaning materials earlier on. We now have lots of 'green' and 'safe' products that cost a great deal more than they used to and moreover often don't work!

Health and environment aside, it actually says somewhere in he EU blurb that a secondary aim is to erect barriers to non-EU manufacturers who have another set of product compliance rules & regulations to cope with if they wish to export their products to the EU. To obtain CE certification, REACH evaluation is added to existing requirements - H4350 and other about to be banned propellants have all previously been expensively CE certified by Hodgdon, but that is withdrawn from 1st June next.

 

[centerlineseal]

Sounds like Brexit can't come soon enough!

 

[dstoenner]

There is one product, Dibutyl phthalate, used in the production of these powders that the European greenies are trying to get rid of.

Never heard of that chemical. So I looked it up. Pretty common chemical used as a platisizer and in inks. Found naturally in cloves. So I guess The EU is banning cloves???

This is plain crazy what it is getting down to

David