.260 AI, 6.5XC, and now 6.5 Creedmoor!!??? Which One??

[M21SNIPER]

Gentlemen,

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all.

I have been kicking this around in my head, over and over and here's my devils advocate reasoning.

1) Factory ammo and Factory,although monopolized by Hornady) virgin brass, without fire forming or any other work is a HUGE PLUS.

2) Short cartridge over all length will allow for a short,although gunsmith modified) bolt throw, which will permit a fixed stock or cheek weld for rapid fire shooting with no change in NPA on the target: HUGE PLUS

3) Barrel life: I just had my second child in November so money is REALLY tight. 6.5 x 55, 6.5-06, are huge and somewhat overbore. Again, trying to get the Long Action bolt throw to go away so I don't have to get my huge noggin' out of the way to work that long, factory 30/06 bolt.

4) New 6.5 Creedmoor Reamer purchase....HUGE MINUS. Hell, I think it's available at Pacific, but no brass is yet available. My smith' is willing to go halves on the reamer, which is more than fair, but again he does have a .260 AI reamer in house, BUT AGAIN, 40d case shoulder and cone faced barrel/ Model 70 may cause feeding and reliability problems. I am sure the .260 AI is the nuts for prone slow, F-Class, and probably Benchrest, but the 40d shoulder seems like a liability to me,the novice 1000 yard shooter).

5) The liquor cabinet is still full of high end bourbon and Single Malt.....HUGE PLUS!

6) Having so many opinions from experienced shooters, and so many total responses: HUGE PLUS!

Thank you all for the information and guidance. I will keep the forum posted and let you know whether this 6.5 Creedmoor project pans out. Saayyy, anybody from Hornady listening/posting???? Want to do a performance evaluation with my new 6.5 5R, SS, Bartlein Heavy Varmint Barrel? I just need you guys to give my smith' about $450.00 and then we'll really see if this platform is a shooter! LMAO!

Here's to a wonderful, safe, accurate, and prosperous New Year in 2008!

Thanks for all of your posts. They were greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Matt

 

[dwl]

M21Sniper;

No one really knows what you want like you do, when you decide. However, seeing all the replies for the 6.5X55 and other larger cartridges, I thought I'd add a data point on the smaller end.

I'm sitting here looking at a 6.5x250 aka 260 Bobcat. I have some experience with this cartridge, 100s though not 1,000s of rounds. It's a mild recoiling round with good accuracy in my Lilja barreled Rem 700. I use 32 grains of RL15 under the Sierra 142 gr MK for a bit over 2600 fps. The 107 gr SMK gets just over 2800 fps with 34 gr of RL15.

My rifle was built for High Power Silhouette with a max distance of 500 meters and with and eye for minimum recoil. I'm not sure what shooting you are planning for but I would think 600 meters and beyond reasonable. I haven't checked to see if it is still supersonic at 1,000 yards.

Accuracy has been good for a gun still in a Rem ADL stock and wearing a 2 lb trigger: .5 down to .298 at 100 yards with a couple of .5 - .6 groups at 200 yards using the 142 gr SMK.

I would suppose that that the 6.5XC and 6.5 Creedmoor would be similar and might have a bit more capacity and therefore a bit more speed with the same bullets.

As for stuck cases, The Winchester 250 Savage cases that I use are probably softer than 6.5X47 Lapuas but I don't have an issue and neither do the two other guns I know of since we aren't pushing the limit. In silhouette the goal is sufficient accuracy and momentum with minimum of recoil. The sweet thing about the 6.5-250 is case forming is no more than necking up .007!

One thought, you might consider a mid 6.5,6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5XC, 6.5-250/260 Bobcat, 6.5 IHMSA) in that new barrel and then set it back if you want more. Hmm, I know where a 6.5-250 reamer is.

dwl

 

[chrisj]

Boots Obermeyer from Obermeyer barrels shot a 6.5/250 and shot amazing scores @ 600 yards.

Chris

 

[Rust]

Only drawback, IMO with cartridges based on the venerable 250 Savage case is the short neck. Probably why wildcats like the 6mm International have the shoulder pushed back a little for a longer neck with the larger diameter bullets.

 

[warthog97]

M21,
I'm going off of memory here, but I thought I read that the 6.5 Creedmoor is another Hornady design using their specialized, can currently non-avaialble to handloaders, powder. If this is the case, then you may not get the performance you are looking for with your reloads. If not, someone please jump in and correct me.

Also, is Hornaday brass going to give you the quality you want?

If I followed you right, you want 1. short action round, 2. reliable feeding from a CRF action, 3. ability to hit 2950fps with 140 class bullets, 4. available brass,ie no fire forming or other time consuming forming techniques). Why not the 6.5x284? You get everything you wanted, but with a barrel life in the 1200 range. That's several years of shooting for most of us hobby shooters. Otherwise, there is the standard 260 Rem. You might have to get Lapua 308 and size it and neck turn it. Then again, the 6.5x55 can get what you want. You could play with the AOL until you find one that cycles as you want and then make the mag/bolt stop mods.

Personally, I think Jerry's spot on. You have a rifle that is commanding premium $ right now. If you don't have a lot of sentimental investment in it, sell it in it's factory condition and build what you want.

-bnw

 

[M21SNIPER]

Warthog and Gents,

Well, after much thought, consideration,specifically to financial matters!!), this discussion board, and lengthy conversations with many High Power competitors, the .260 Ackley Improved won out.

My smith has the Pacific Tool/Gage .260 AI reamers, and when I took a serious look at the former cartridge OAL of the 30/06,3.340") vs. the short action OAL of the .260 Remington and AI versions, it seemed like the logical choice. Everyone I talked to said the same thing: the production .260 Remington is a good thing and the Ackley version is a serious improvement over an already solid performer. Everyone also talked about the 6.5-.284 being the cartridge for 1000 yards, but also admitted it's serious faults,at least for my criteria and $$$$ budget) of a Long Action length and being a serious barrel burner!

I expect to have my smith turn this project around in about 6 weeks or so, and I will try and post some pictures of the finished product and hopefully some load development and accuracy testing targets as well. I can't wait to see what the Bartlein Barrel is capable of!

I can't say enough to all of you who gave their opinions and expertise. To have this many responses and constructive criticism for such a new users of this website speaks volumes.

Thanks again for all input and thoughts! They were greatly appreciated!

Keep them in the 10 Ring!

Regards,

Matt

 

[chrisj]

Matt....you won't get much better bbl life frpm a 260 AI vs a 6.5-284 if you plan on trying to get the same velocity as the 6.5-284. You will use the only a grain or so less of H4350 in the 260 AI to get 2900-2950 like the 6.5-284 and will have much higher pressures.

Chris

 

[mysticplayer]

For reference, I use 46.5gr of H4831SC in my 6.5 Mystic/260AI behind a 139gr Lapua Scenar for 2900fps. 30" barrel.

I tried H4350 but wasn't the best powder for my pipe. Best load was 44.5/45gr.

Over 1700rds and still holding the 3's at 300m.

I expect to approach 2500rds before needing a set back.

Others are getting similar barrel lifespans.

Jerry

 

[rcw3]

Jerry - Mysticplayer

Maybe I am not getting something here, but after 2500 rounds down a 6.5 Mystic/260AI running 2900 fps with 139 Lapuas, the throat on your rifle barrel has to be looking like seriously degenerated alligator skin about for at least 7" to 8" up the barrel from the throat, so what good is setting the barrel back going to do unless you are going to chop 8" off the barrel?

I usually don't set barrels back after a barrel has seen any length of time of hard use because when you look up to bore with a bore scope, and if you set the barrel back 1" to 2", you're still in rifling that is is very diminished condition. What am I missing here?

Robert Whitley

 

[mysticplayer]

"What am I missing here?"

I don't own a bore scope

I go by holes in paper not by how my bore looks. I have bought many used barrels that were shot out only to reinstall and enjoy alot of good accuracy.

Bores will always look horrid under the eyes of a magnifying glass. So do super models....

When a barrel starts throwing shots or aggs open up and I can't tune my load, I will set back or rebarrel.

Heresy to some, true but I am also one of those shooters that never cleans their bores even after 50rds have been fired in a match!

Jerry

PS in case you are wondering the level of accuracy I am willing to tolerate? In my F class rifles, that is shooting no more then the 3's tested at 300m. That's as accurate as some rifle brand new!

 

[DesertLefty]

M21,

You may want to consider using Lapua .243 brass as the starting point for your .260 AI. Very high quality brass and no need to neck turn,compared to necking down a .308 case). Worked well in my .260 Rem.

Lefty

 

[rcw3]

Jerry - Misticplayer

If you are doing your own work to set back and re-chamber a barrel that's one thing, you're not going to get burned too bad if things don't work out, but if you are paying a gunsmith to set back and re-chamber a barrel I feel it borders on being an unwise use of money to set back barrels. Years ago I had barrels that shot well, had them set back when the round count piled up and never got them to shoot well again, might as well have just shot them out and pitched them after that. Also had ones that were set back and got new life, only to poop out again after only 500 to 1000 rounds more -barely worth it for the extra life. Now I have taken 30" bolt gun barrels that were shot out and cut 6" - 8" off them to make test barrels for AR's and they usually worked out well because I was able to get rid of the section of barrel that had the alligatored rifling. It boils down to what's a better use of time and money many times - like I said, if you do it yourself and all you have is your time into it you won't get burned too bad if it doesn't work out.

Robert Whitley

 

[rhino]

While an alligatored bore might shoot good up close I kinda wonder if it would hold together for 1k work? Since I have no first hand knowledge I can only go on what others have told me about the bores just going tits up during a match 9 10, x, miss, 9, miss..etc. This is on the 6.5x.284 of course.

I really need to invest in a borescope. I am told its just like a chronograph...once you get one and know how to use it...you wonder how you ever got along without one

I might go to a 35 degree shoulder on the sweede in the future. A shooting buddy and former high power shooting buddy of mine is putting the swede through the paces. He has a borescope and knows much more than I do about all the particulars. I just test...shoots good..and go with it.

RHINOUT!

 

[mysticplayer]

rcw3, good points and as they say, YMMV.

rhino, I do my load testing at 300m. If a load shoots well there, it has always held together at 1km. 100yds tell me nothing about the LR accuracy of a barrel or load.

I really look at the vertical stringing and want a group as flat as possible. Then I can just focus on the wind.

The last time I had my 6.5 Mystic in prep for a match, my 300m groups would have about 1/4 to 1/2" vertical. The best group, had all the shoots neatly in a line.

The conditions were windy with heavy mirage so I couldn't spot my own shots. The groups of course showed more horizontal then necessary - was shooting blind.

The further you test, the better.

I have also had and seen barrel tank during shooting. That has always been related to throat length. The throats just wore out and allowed the bullets to make a jump from the case neck to the rifling.

In all instances, setting back to solid rifling and reestablishing the throat restored accuracy. Now these were varmint and hunting rifles so we are not looking at sub 1/4min shooters. More then accurate to do their intended job.

Jerry