243win vs. 6creedmoor

[Dusty Stevens]

somebody here tell me what does the 6cm do that the 243win doesnt? Why is the CM a more popular choice like for PRS and the tactical type games? Is it that the CM outperformes the old workhorse or is it the cool factor only or what am i missing?

 

[spclark]

Barrel life I suspect, then maybe recoil....
The mid-size 6’s do a fine job 95% of the time, but unless you can chamber & fit your own barrels (John Whidden comes to mind, or Wayne Forshee who used a 243 very nicely for ‘course shooting for years) there’s a price to pay for that last 5%.

 

[shooter65]

http://forum.snipershide.com/threads/6-creedmoor-vs-243-winchester.215747/


http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_243_6mmCreedmor.html

 

[Delfuego]

I think COAL comes into play as well as trimming. 6x47 would be less of both and same performance

 

[1lnbrdg]

Little bit of difference betwixt a 6CM and a 6MM Creedmoor

 

[urbanrifleman]

somebody here tell me what does the 6cm do that the 243win doesnt? Why is the CM a more popular choice like for PRS and the tactical type games? Is it that the CM outperformes the old workhorse or is it the cool factor only or what am i missing?

The 243 has really impressed me, especially with R16 and N160. If you are worried about barrel life, just shoot the 243 lower node with N160. But at least you have the option. The 243 with N160 has some serious gas, some SERIOUS gas, but is perfectly happy with very mild loads at the lower end of the pressure curve.

N160 is supposed to be the coolest burning powder available. I heard. It sure does burn clean.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Here is load workup for N160 and the 95 VLD. You can see I could go with the low node or the high. And there is another node above this one that is REALLY screaming. The 45 grain load was about 3250 FPS. The 42 grain was about 3050. So, you could shoot it like a Dasher or shoot it like a magnum.

 

[K22]

This is one of the those paper related issues meaning it's all in the imagination. The 243 with proper bullets and loads is an excellent cartridge with brass readily available. There are a vast array of high quality factory rifles available in this caliber.

I've been shooting 243's since the late 60's and have shot everything from varmints (ghogs / crows) to predators (fox and coyotes) to white tail deer. It's capable of excellent accuracy and good terminal performance with the correct bullets. Recoil is light even in light rifles.

The rap on the 243 that I've read here is low barrel life. That may be true for target applications. My Rem Model 700 Stainless which I just put away for the summer has 3,749 rounds through it and still holds 1 1/4" at 100 yards. Granted that isn't great accuracy anymore for a varmint rifle but it works fine for a deer rifle.

I don't shoot max loads and don't shoot in rapid succession (i.e. from a hot barrel) when I practice (usually 10 rounds per range session) so the vast majority of my shots are cold barrel shots.

I'm also careful about regularly cleaning with a carbon and copper solvent.

If I was going the Creedmore route which I'm not, I'd opt for the 6.5 since it shoots heavier bullets. But then again why not the 260 Rem or 7MM-08 if you want heavier bullets.

 

[Laurie]

Until the Ruger PR came along recently with its (not very successful and soon terminated) 243 option and maybe Savage a little beforehand, nearly all manufacturers treated the cartridge as a purely sporting number. The biggest problem for the would-be target user is the SAAMI 10-twist rifling pitch that seriously limits bullet options, and either related to that or as a standalone factor, scores of varmint and deer factory ammo loads available, but virtually nil target.

Yes, you can have an 8-twist long-freebore barrel put onto your 243 (or anything else with a 0.473" dia. bolt-face), but if there are no factory rifles and/or ammunition that inhibits demand so much that a cartridge or variant thereof never gains traction. The two Creedmoors have had a good choice of factory rifles and match cartridges from launch, in fact the original 6.5mm version was envisaged as and marketed as a range-ready target shooting product.

The 1950s era 243 in 'Winchester' form is seen by many as rather 'old-fashioned' today with its short neck and shallow shoulders and like the 260 Rem struggles to cope with the heaviest / longest match bullets while retaining COALs that fit in and feed from short-action magazines. The answer to that is of course very simple, Robert Whitley's 6mm SLR that is a reformed 243 with its shoulders pushed back to give the same 30-deg angle as the Creedmoor and 6XC and an XC length neck, although that doesn't cure the potential COAL issue.

........... AND, of course there is a Creedmoor bandwagon that it not only trundling merrily along but is accelerating to F1 car speeds it seems. Although Ruger (and IIRC Savage a bit earlier with its 12 LRP) had fast-twist 243 options, as soon as Hornady launched a factory version of the 6mm Creedmoor wildcat, that signed the factory heavy bullet 243's death warrant.

 

[urbanrifleman]

The answer to that is of course very simple, Robert Whitley's 6mm SLR that is a reformed 243 with its shoulders pushed back to give the same 30-deg angle as the Creedmoor and 6XC and an XC length neck, although that doesn't cure the potential COAL issue.

I am still trying to figure out what I am missing here. I keep hearing about magazine length issues with the 243. I am trying to figure out which magazines they are talking about. The SAMMI 243 seated well into the lands fits easily into AR10 mags and AISC mags which were designed for 308 length rounds. A 243 with a 108 Berger is not even close to as long as a 308 even at standard length.

 

[Laurie]

I am still trying to figure out what I am missing here. I keep hearing about magazine length issues with the 243. I am trying to figure out which magazines they are talking about. The SAMMI 243 seated well into the lands fits easily into AR10 mags and AISC mags which were designed for 308 length rounds. A 243 with a 108 Berger is not even close to as long as a 308 even at standard length.

Let's look at the cartridge and bullet dimensions and do the sums. The 243's case has an OAL of 2.045" and a neck-length of 0.241"

The 105gn Berger Target Hybrid to take a popular 6mm long-range match bullet has a shank length of 0.408", and nose length of 0.655" (Bryan Litz bullet drawing and dimensions from Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets 3rd Edition.)

Seat that bullet at the optimum position with its shank / tail junction on the case shoulder / neck junction and 0.167" of its shank sits outside of the case-mouth. (0.408 - 0.241")

Add on the bullet nose length and 0.822" of bullet is outside of the case. (0.167 + 0.655").

Then add that onto the 243 case length, 2.045 + 0.822" and you get 2.867". Some factory rifles accept ~2.9", but not all by any means. Some examples of the popular AI magazine accept 2.880", other around 2.85-2.86", but you need to leave a tad clearance in any event for 100% reliable feed.

Many people don't want the bottom of the shank right on the case neck to shoulder junction - they want it a little bit higher in case a doughnut is present or appears during the life of the case. So, another few thou' go onto the COAL, and there are longer bullets than the Hybrid appearing, the Hornady ELD-M and 110gn Sierra MK both have roughly same length shanks, but longer neck sections. Redoing the sums for the SMK gives a COAL of 2.941" with the bottom of the shank right on the case shoulder to neck join.

For single shot use no problem even in short actions, but we're talking factory repeaters here. Yes, of course the SAAMI 2.710" maximum COAL fits AR-10 mags and everything else but only if part of a match bullet shank is pushed below the neck. Most 243 hunting and varmint bullets are actually quite short and suit the factory 243 COAL very well, many in fact are loaded to less than it.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Let's look at the cartridge and bullet dimensions and do the sums. The 243's case has an OAL of 2.045" and a neck-length of 0.241"

The 105gn Berger Target Hybrid to take a popular 6mm long-range match bullet has a shank length of 0.408", and nose length of 0.655" (Bryan Litz bullet drawing and dimensions from Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets 3rd Edition.)

Seat that bullet at the optimum position with its shank / tail junction on the case shoulder / neck junction and 0.167" of its shank sits outside of the case-mouth. (0.408 - 0.241")

Add on the bullet nose length and 0.822" of bullet is outside of the case. (0.167 + 0.655").

Then add that onto the 243 case length, 2.045 + 0.822" and you get 2.867". Some factory rifles accept ~2.9", but not all by any means. Some examples of the popular AI magazine accept 2.880", other around 2.85-2.86", but you need to leave a tad clearance in any event for 100% reliable feed.

Many people don't want the bottom of the shank right on the case neck to shoulder junction - they want it a little bit higher in case a doughnut is present or appears during the life of the case. So, another few thou' go onto the COAL, and there are longer bullets than the Hybrid appearing, the Hornady ELD-M and 110gn Sierra MK both have roughly same length shanks, but longer neck sections. Redoing the sums for the SMK gives a COAL of 2.941" with the bottom of the shank right on the case shoulder to neck join.

For single shot use no problem even in short actions, but we're talking factory repeaters here. Yes, of course the SAAMI 2.710" maximum COAL fits AR-10 mags and everything else but only if part of a match bullet shank is pushed below the neck. Most 243 hunting and varmint bullets are actually quite short and suit the factory 243 COAL very well, many in fact are loaded to less than it.

I do not have my notes in front of me, but I shoot 243 in my Bartlein 5R AR10 using the Sammi reamer which has about .085" freebore. With the Berger 108 seated to the lands it is nowhere near full mag length ( I know because I seated the bullet to fit the mag when I first got it assuming it was never going to touch the lands and it was like 1/10" too long for the chamber). I have not had any donut problems at all because the neck is 277 which allows the donut area to expand (which I think all these tight necks cause more problems than they fix). I only size above the donut area. I am pretty sure I could go to .125" FB and still be fine in the Magpul and DPMS mags.

My Ruger VT is a 243, and shooting out of the mag is not an issue and that throat is crazy long for some reason. Much longer than SAMMI. A 6MM bullet is just much shorter than a 30 cal bullet.... even the long ones.

 

[JaoeyP]

I think you're somewhat splitting hairs between the two. I've been playing with 243 in a 10" twist rifle and just over the last couple months a 7" twist rifle. The 7" twist rifle is likely a fairer comparison. I'm still playing with some loads for it.

I built the 7" twist rifle specifically with the intention of shooting the 110gr SMK. COAL is an issue with this bullet and mag length. If I load to the lands there's not a magazine on the market that will fit these rounds. I think this bullet is better suited to the 6 Creedmoor. I've been recently loading DTACs. They can kiss the lands and just barely fit into a MagPul AI mag (the shortest mag I have). The DTACs have also shot better so far.

I do have to trim my 243 cases a fair amount and wish I could shoot a few more times without doing so.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I built the 7" twist rifle specifically with the intention of shooting the 110gr SMK. COAL is an issue with this bullet and mag length. If I load to the lands there's not a magazine on the market that will fit these rounds.

Please forgive my ignorance, but what game would require a repeater that shoots 110 grain 6mm bullets? I am not familiar with PRS competition, but I can't imagine where ultra high ballistic coefficient bullets and repeater actions with magazine are a requirement. Except maybe Highpower, but everyone single feeds their back line slow fire rounds.

 

[JaoeyP]

Please forgive my ignorance, but what game would require a repeater that shoots 110 grain 6mm bullets? I am not familiar with PRS competition, but I can't imagine where ultra high ballistic coefficient bullets and repeater actions with magazine are a requirement. Except maybe Highpower, but everyone single feeds their back line slow fire rounds.

PRS does require a mag to be competitive and I'd bet there are guys in that sport running 110SMKs in some form of 6mm, not likely a 243 Win though.

Also, can't a guy have a set up a certain way because that's how he wants it? I don't want a single shot rifle. I don't want to single load cartridges into a repeater either. Has nothing to do with any certain of requirements.

 

[urbanrifleman]

PRS does require a mag to be competitive and I'd bet there are guys in that sport running 110SMKs in some form of 6mm, not likely a 243 Win though.

Also, can't a guy have a set up a certain way because that's how he wants it? I don't want a single shot rifle. I don't want to single load cartridges into a repeater either. Has nothing to do with any certain of requirements.

Of course, just trying to learn!!! Ohhh, my AR10 would be perfect for PRS... pew pew pew

 

[Laurie]

PRS combines high BC bullets and serious performance and accuracy. Whether competitors will use the 110 in the 6XC and 6 Creedmoor, I've no idea, but past history shows that if a better option is available somebody is bound to try it in this most competitive of shooting sports. (Hence the 'in cartridge' appears to change every season ) If that somebody wins with the 110s, everybody will be using them by the following season at the latest.

None of this alters the facts that the OP alludes to - the 6mm Creedmoor is on a tremendous roll; most US PRS and Tactical competitors now use it. None use the 243, and his question is 'why?' Apart from the Creedmoor being marginally better suited to use of heavy bullets (but don't discount 'marginally' here - every 0.1% performance gain on offer is seized by these people), the straight answer is that it doesn't do anything that the 243 cannot. In other words an exact parallel with its older 6.5mm brother and the 260 Rem.

Fashion aside, the 243 and 260 could have been easily adapted to modern trends had the companies wished. Case making technology has moved on a GREAT deal in recent years and it's no sweat to make 30-degree shoulders these days with no more rejects than 20-deg numbers like the 308 and its 243, 260 etc offspring. The question I have is are Remington and Winchester even aware of these trends at all and did they ever consider providing products for them? Whilst Remington and Winchester have sat on their old designs apparently happy to churn out slightly improved hunting ammo, Hornady has stolen a march on them - not just once or twice but getting on for serially. New entrants have appeared in both case and ammunition manufacturing fields recently, just minnows today, but maybe not so in 10 years time.

 

[shooter65]

http://precisionrifleblog.com/category/what-the-pros-use/

 

[urbanrifleman]

“Get one caliber, learn your data, and don’t chase the new shiny.” – Tyler Payne, #1 Open Division

This guy obviously does not post here... hahaha!!!

 

[shooter65]

PRS history:

308

260

243 - .243 Win For Tactical Comps
We asked GA Precision’s George Gardner why he chose .243 Winchester for his Tactical Comp Gun. He replied, “Why would I run anything else?

6.5x47

6xc

6.5 Creedmoor

6 Creedmoor

Next new future flavor????


243 is a fine all around cartridge. Hunting or PRS it just plain works.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/243win/