.243 win 87gr vmax and rl17 velocity

[ghost_rider]

I have a decent load with rem brass shooting 42gr rl17 with a 87gr vmax loaded to an oal of 2.810. I am getting 3125 avg through my chrono but a buddy claims im loading to hot by looking at the primers. What are you guys thoughts on this? The primers are a bit flatened but if i drop down the primer actually comes out of the case a bit like it was pushed out with a depriming tool with no deformation to the primer. Do you think its a headspace issue? All the factory ammo i have shot through it has been flatened the same ammount or worse. Ghanks for the help

 

[stebbins243]

I dont have my book in front of me for the col, but i know i was around 43 gr of the rl17 and didnt have any flat primers. Do you know if your in the lands? I found a few of my rifles like some good room befor the lands for pressures, others i can push right up to them and have no problems. Whats the make/model rifle and what primers are you using?

 

[ghost_rider]

Definately not in the lands. This rifle has a long throat for some reason. It is a custom gun. Not sure on make of barrel and it is a mauser action. Shooting winchester large rifle primers. Only other large rifle primers i have is cci br-4.

 

[stebbins243]

Looked at my book, i loaded 2.750 col win brass necked sized only with br-2 primers loaded with 44 gr of reloader17. My notes say shot great no pressure. I loaded this back in june so it was a warm weather load which usually makes my pressures alittle higher. Does the gun do this to any other loads? You say its a customs gun, i wonder if its a tight neck and needs a turned neck. Does the bolt close easy or feel like your forcing it? Have you tried differant seating depths?

 

[ghost_rider]

I dont think its a tight neck but can check when i get home. There is no markings on the barrel indicating such.

And i have tried different seating depths. Doesnt make a difference

 

[stebbins243]

Ive never personaly experianced this but i have heard that a weak spring on your fireing pin can cause this. When the pin strikes it needs to stay put and not bounce back. Also if the hole in the bolt face is too large for the pin it can create a false high pressure sign on the primer. Itis still dangerous because a primer can rupture, but the pressure of the cartridge overall could still be within safe limits. Id check both out. Is there any other signs of pressure? Heavy extraction marks, cracked necks, heavy bolt lift?

 

[ghost_rider]

Im getting bad case life 5-7 reloads out of em, but i think it was because i had my dies setup wrong. They were setting the case back more then what i wanted. I was full length sizing them. Idk maybe i ought to back it down a half grain. I just cant believ im getting that close to pressure with what i have loaded

I dont think its the spring or too big a hole.

 

[stebbins243]

Yeah there is a weird variable somewere. Ive loaded up to 44 grains on rl17 with no problems.

 

[K22]

Im getting bad case life 5-7 reloads out of em, but i think it was because i had my dies setup wrong. They were setting the case back more then what i wanted. I was full length sizing them. Idk maybe i ought to back it down a half grain. I just cant believ im getting that close to pressure with what i have loaded

I dont think its the spring or too big a hole.

Suggest you purchase a Wilson Case Gage to set up your full sizing die to prevent oversizing. It's simple to use and doesn't require any additional measuring tools.

 

[ghost_rider]

This is what i know. The gun was gifted to me. I shot about 100 rounds through it in stock form. It had a full length mannlicher style stock on it. It shot .75 groups but they moved everytime i shot. I changed out the stock to a bouds thumbhole and tryed that. I got .5 groups with 70gr ballistic tips. I bought a used scope(leupold) and couldnever get it to group again. 2-3" groups was the norm. Tried three different bullets four types of powder and two different primers. Nothing worked. I shot factory loads after a good bare metal cleaning. 2-3" groups. Stuck the old scope back on .75 groups. Meanwhile i cound a load(current load in question) that worked. .5-.375 groups with occastional flyer. I got the scope back from leupold and stuck it on. Well stull couldnt get it to group so i lapped the rings in perfect and rezeroed. Again back to .75 groups.

I also know that this gun coppers very quickly. I am very close to getting a new barrel put on but the local gunsmith claims the throat is perfect. That was 100 rounds ago apx. I checked the tight neck and with loaded shells there is no rubbing at all on the neck of the case. Not tight to chamber a round. I checked the ogive of the bullet and no marks on bullet so i doubt it is jammed into the lands. I checked the col by dropping a bullet into the chamber. Then measure from a known point on the reciever to back of bullet. Write that number down then drop a fired case into the chamber and measure to the known point on the reciever. Then measure the bullet length. Add the bullet length to the back of the bullet measurement. Then take that measurment to the back of the case measurement and subtract it to hat i got to the tip of the bullet in the chamber. Does that sound right or did i loose you?

I did notice the barrel is coppered up. Im getting new brass friday and plannin on loading some to try out sun/mon. Right now it shoots .5" groups but dont want to worry about running patches down the barrel every 20-30 shots that i am now. I am using sweets backed up with hoppes 9 and then break free oil. I clean with sweets till no blue then dry patch. Then hoppes two shots through dry patch and then breakfree.

Do you guys got any help or ideas? Drop a half grain and try that. Shorten oal ? Try different powder? I have tried varget h4350 h4895 and rl17 and 95 gr sst, 70gr nosler, 85 gr sierra, and the 87 gr vmax

 

[stebbins243]

I think maybe the col is too much. Seat the bullets alittle deeper. Start over with the min. Load and work it back up. Its frustrating when things like this happen, but if every gun could just shoot max loads and same hole out of the box then our sport wouldnt be as fun. Sorry its cutting you off at every corner but im sure it will get figured out. I would try factory col and dropping the powder gr back to min load and working back up.

 

[jonbearman]

You ought to slug the barrel and see if the dimension of the bore isnt real tight for some reason. Secondly if it coppers real bad,you may try tubbs final finish through the barrel.I did it to a savage barrel that shot erratically and it tightened the groups up alot.

 

[ghost_rider]

Ok. I got some brass. I loaded up some loads with 41.5 and 41 grs of rl17. I shortened the col up to 2.640 which is what the book states as the recomended col. I switched to winchester brass and tried using cci br2 primers. I know i changed a lot of things at once but. Those two 5 shot groups didnt fare well. But the primers looked better and the bore wasnt coppered up bad. In fact it was hardly noticeable. The 41 gr group looked better so i went down to 40.8 gr and 40.5 gr. the first three shots landed into the typical .75 group. The next two moved left. The 4th shot was 1.5" to the left and the 5th another inch past that but vertical spread seemed around .5-.75" tall. I waited a minute between getting ready for the next shot just like my .223. But by number 5 the barrel was considerably warm to the touch. I waited and shot the 40.5 gr group and nearly the same results. Only the vertical dispertion was a tad bit bigger.

Now i did some research and i think the barrel was machined wrong. Mainly the runout of the bore to the outside contour. The reason i believe this is ever since day one if i look through the bore to a target 100 yds away the crosshairs are to the left of the target slcenter by qbout 6". Being a machinist i know how metal reacts to heat and how variences in material thickness can effect acuracy so i think i have something now. I cant get back to the range till wed so we'll see how it goes

 

[stebbins243]

After 5 shots the barrel shouldnt be as warm as you make it sound. Maybe the bore is way to tight. Im also going to range today to figure the same problem my buddy mike is having with his steven m200 in .308. Good luck friend.

 

[fredhorace77]

IMO...the breakfree that your putting in last is the problem...ive quit putting any type of lubricant into my barrels unless i plan on storing them for a really long time...it takes appox. 20 rounds to get the oil out of my barrels and groups are horrible till it is all out. also if it is copper fouling bad you might try couple passes with JB bore paste

 

[ghost_rider]

I stopped in at a local fellas house last week. He has shot long range at williamsport before and asked him some questions. First off i was squishin my brass too much when i was full length resizing them. Second i started using a brush with the sweets. And i think i found the problem. I have spent literally a whole afternoon scrubbing this barrel clean. Using sweets and hoppes. I think i am close but still just get a bit of blue out of the gun. What i have been doing is run a brush fown the bore till i get a good lather up. Then let sit for 5 mins. Then dry patch it out and run hoppes down after and repeat. I cant believe how fouled this gun is. I thought i took it down to bare steel before but it must have never been to bare steel. I never used a brush either because i was afraid of harming the bore. I quickly charged a case seated a bullet and went out back and shot and the primer doesnt even look like it moved. No flat spotting whatever. Im gonna scrub some more tommarow and then hopefully it will be clean. What are some other cleaners out there that are decent. Sweets is harsh but i cant believe how bad this barrel was coppered.

Also will bronze brushs react with the same blue color that copper has? If so i might have it clean and the blue im getting is from the brush.

 

[jonbearman]

YOUR BRUSH WILL REACT WITH SWEETS.I USE A STIFF NYLON AT THE END TO MAKE SURE THAT THE BRUSH ISNT A FACTOR ANYMORE.


Sorry caps on again.

 

[ghost_rider]

Ok the last two or three times the blue was just a faint hint so i believe its down to bare steel

 

[ghost_rider]

I got the gun cleaned down to bare steel using a copper brush and now the best i can get is moa. But its consistant. Next year after hunting season is over i would like to either get a new barrel on in a light varmint countour or get the current barrel fixed up. Get the throat shortened and glass bed the action. Rechamber in either .243 or i might use the action in a 6 mm br. Not sure yet but i'll dwell on it this winter. I did get about the same results with two different bullets. A nosler 95 gr bt and the 87 gr rl17. Not really a fan of the ro 17 mainly because of the carbon buildup. Im shooting h4895 with the noslers. I might try h4350 with it though. But for now its deer accurate out to its effective range.

 

[joecob]

I recently tried 2 different loads in my factory Rem 700 VLS both behind a
Sierra 85 gr. HPBT. The first was 44.5 gr of H414, listed in a forum artcle.
The other 37.3 gr. of N140 Sierra's listed 'accuracy' load. Both using Norma brass
and F210m primers. I only fired 4 of the H414 loads. grouped nice but they
felt a bit hot to use at 100 yds.. The primers were not flattened but seemed
backed out a bit. Sound familiar?

I then tried the N140 load (which I sighted in ). No backed out primers and two
back to back 1/4 MOA targets.
The H414 load had a COL of 2.7 which should have been off the lands. The N140
loads were at 2.650, quite a jump.
I' not sure this applies to your problem but I'm going to push back the H414 loads
and try again. 2.810 sounds long to me, but I'm not familiar with your rifle or
bullet??