.243 Ackley Woes

[Knotwild]

I have a custom .243 Ackley, 20" barrel, and 10 twist. Right now I have a Leupold 4.5 -14 on it. I am shooting off a solid bench with rests, using IMR 4350 at 45 gr with a 87 gr Hornady V Max, seated touching the lands, and Federal 210 primers. I can vary the load and I regularly get no improvement in group size, but regularly get two shots about 0.4" apart and one about an inch away. Usually the last shot is the one that blows the group.

This rifle has always been finicky from day one. I haven't shot the gun in a few years, but pulled it out to use for deer season and I am frustrated. What should I try next? I am going to go through and check all the screws, but I hope the more experienced shooters here can help me out.

 

[ShootDots]

Knot, what you have is a rather large "overbore" case that needs slow powders to "properly" take advantage of the overbore situation. Let's assume for argument's sake that the rifle is "right">>bedding, bolt truing, properly adjusted (tight) screws on bases, rings etc... If EVERYTHING is as it should be, my guess would be that you are burning powder in a VERY short barrel, that needs a LONG barrel to do what slow burning powders are supposed to do.. That could very well account for your "woes" as you say.. Is there a cure for that? Maybe, then again maybe not. If I were in your situation, I would try a faster powder to see what happens. I would give IMR 4007 or VV N140 or some such powder in that general burn rate, a chance. You don't want to go TOO fast, however, I think you are using a GREAT powder for your cartridge, but generally speaking from a 26" bore.. You are shooting from a barrel that is about 30+ pct. shorter than a barrel that would normally be used for that cartridge / powder combination. In order to burn "properly", IMHO, a somewhat faster powder may prove more feasible.. Let us know what course of action you plan on taking and what the results are... Thanks...

 

[Knotwild]

Thanks ShootDots. What you are telling me makes sense. I did try some Varget a couple of years ago, but it didn't show any great results. I may try some IMR 4007, or perhaps H 4350. Jarrett built the rifle years ago and it hasn't been shot much, but it was always a job to get it to shoot around 1/2". I can take a similar load with IMR 4350 with a 95 gr Nosler Ballistic tip in a 6mm Remington factory 6mm Remington and reliably shoot around 3/4" all day every day. I know the twist in that barrel is around 9 I think.

I also forgot to mention that I tried some Reloader 19 that I had laying around and it was as bad or worse than the IMR 4350. I see why after reading your post and it also seems to verify what you are saying.

Do you think a magnum primer might help?

If I can find some of the powders we mentioned I am definitely going to give them a try. And I am going to try some flat based 85 gr Sierras Game Kings. I am not nearly as accomplished a reloader as most guys here, but I keep thinking I should be able to hit on something that shows promise.

This rifle also might get a longer barrel in .260 Remington AI sometime soon.

 

[ShootDots]

Knot, I don't know what your twist rate is, however, I suspect it to be the "normal" 10 twist. That will shoot bullets to 100grs. 85gr bullets should do pretty well. However, H4350 is a SHADE slower than IMR 4350>>>you would be going in the wrong direction... RL-19 is slower yet, probably why it did so poorly.. It would not hurt to try a magnum primer, however, I don't think it is necessary>>>BUT try it! If you go to the 260A.I. make SURE you get a barrel of at least 26"... I think if you tried IMR 4007 you might get a good surprise! Let's hope so..

 

[Knotwild]

Thanks very much. I think I will try some 4007. I will probably have to have some shipped because the few stores that carry powder around here only carry the most commonly used powders. I will post the results.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

You don't say what brass you are using or whether or not you are full length resizing. I've been working with the following rifle for about 18 months.

http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/gallery/member-galleries/p4428-russell-gall-243-ackley-improved.html

I'm using Lapua brass and a custom Hornady full length resizing die that I had made. My Dad shot a .25 MOA group with the rifle in the Spring and recently I've managed to match that group. I've used N160 with a number of 87gr and 85gr bullets and am very pleased. I do have issues getting consistent neck tension, but my groups are fine for stalking.

Are you happy that the rifle is bedded correctly? Some time ago I had a rifle with a bedding issue and it took years to get it sorted out.

Regards
JCS

 

[Raptor]

My old 243imp loved H414 but I hated it. Its a dirty powder and carbon fouls if you don't keep cleaning it. Its also very temp. sensitive. But damn would it shoot!!

 

[oldroper]

Thanks very much. I think I will try some 4007. I will probably have to have some shipped because the few stores that carry powder around here only carry the most commonly used powders. I will post the results.

I'm using IMR-4007ssc in my 243AI 1/10 twist barrel @ 27" long and I've also shot some H-4350 and I also shoot 243 with 1/10 twist Kreiger barrel @ 24" long. I do agree maybe trying some FB bullets and I think maybe IMR-4064 another powder would be Nosler data for the 95/100gr bullet using IMR-3031.

Kreiger barrel 243 I got new 1965 and over the years shot lot of IMR-3031 and IMR-4350 with 85gr Sierra HPBT in that rifle and I'm now shooting some Brigadier 3032 no longer made which couple grains fast than IMR-3031.

well good luck.

 

[ar15topgun]

Try some IMR4064. Works very good in my .257 Roberts AI.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Thanks very much. I think I will try some 4007. I will probably have to have some shipped because the few stores that carry powder around here only carry the most commonly used powders. I will post the results.

Fine, but I don't think you have a powder problem. I would suggest checking out the rifle and scope a bit further first. When I got my 243 Ackley, I just went straight out with it and used factory ammunition to get it zeroed and hunt. Why don't you try some factory 243 ammo? A variety of 243 Win ammo in the 80-95gr range shouldn't be hard to find. Then do a trial with the factory stuff.

Regards JCS

 

[Knotwild]

Shootdots

Knot, I don't know what your twist rate is, however, I suspect it to be the "normal" 10 twist. That will shoot bullets to 100grs. 85gr bullets should do pretty well. However, H4350 is a SHADE slower than IMR 4350>>>you would be going in the wrong direction... RL-19 is slower yet, probably why it did so poorly.. It would not hurt to try a magnum primer, however, I don't think it is necessary>>>BUT try it! If you go to the 260A.I. make SURE you get a barrel of at least 26"... I think if you tried IMR 4007 you might get a good surprise! Let's hope so..

Benjamin, Thanks again for your help. I am sure the rifle has a 10 twist. It is a Kenny Jarrett barrel and his barrel machine has interchangeable guides that make sure the rod pulling the button rotates at the desired twist and does not slip. The books say my 6mm Rem, Model 600 has a 9 twist. I guess that is why it handles the reduced velocity of the short barrel.

Just for the fun of it, I might try a magnum primer in hopes it might light the charge off more efficiently. It won't cost much to give that a try.

I did finally find a pound of IMR 4007 at Powder Valley and bit my lip while paying hazmat.

JCS
You don't say what brass you are using or whether or not you are full length resizing. I've been working with the following rifle for about 18 months.

http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/gallery/member-galleries/p4428-russell-gall-243-ackley-improved.html

I'm using Lapua brass and a custom Hornady full length resizing die that I had made. My Dad shot a .25 MOA group with the rifle in the Spring and recently I've managed to match that group. I've used N160 with a number of 87gr and 85gr bullets and am very pleased. I do have issues getting consistent neck tension, but my groups are fine for stalking.

Are you happy that the rifle is bedded correctly? Some time ago I had a rifle with a bedding issue and it took years to get it sorted out.

Regards

JCS
I am not sure about the bedding. Jarrett did the work and he has always turned out good stuff, so I doubt that is the problem. The rifle was originally a .308 and shot good with that barrel, which I think the late Harold Broughton in Texas made for Kenny.

I am using Nosler brass that I just fire formed and I am only neck sizing. I have tried sizing the full neck and backing the die up the width of a quarter to keep from bumping the shoulder back. Neither made any difference. Also, since it is hot and humid here I tried adding baby powder to the leather bags, but it made no difference.

Oldroper

I'm using IMR-4007ssc in my 243AI 1/10 twist barrel @ 27" long and I've also shot some H-4350 and I also shoot 243 with 1/10 twist Kreiger barrel @ 24" long. I do agree maybe trying some FB bullets and I think maybe IMR-4064 another powder would be Nosler data for the 95/100gr bullet using IMR-3031.

Kreiger barrel 243 I got new 1965 and over the years shot lot of IMR-3031 and IMR-4350 with 85gr Sierra HPBT in that rifle and I'm now shooting some Brigadier 3032 no longer made which couple grains fast than IMR-3031.

well good luck.

As I mentioned above, I did order some 4007 ssc today and was going to order some H414 based on some posts here, but it was out of stock and I didn't want to pay hazmat from 2 suppliers. I do have some old IMR 3031 and possibly some IMR 4064 lying around that I might give a try. It would be worth it to add to the learning curve. I also couldn't find any flat base 85 gr Sierras, but maybe some will pop up.

 

[Knotwild]

Fine, but I don't think you have a powder problem. I would suggest checking out the rifle and scope a bit further first. When I got my 243 Ackley, I just went straight out with it and used factory ammunition to get it zeroed and hunt. Why don't you try some factory 243 ammo? A variety of 243 Win ammo in the 80-95gr range shouldn't be hard to find. Then do a trial with the factory stuff.

Regards JCS
[/quote]

I think I have some Federal factory stuff and I am going to give that a try also. As I mentioned in earlier posts, the rifle shot good as a 308, but was always kind of finicky as a .243 Ackley. The gun has been in the safe for about 3 years and I do remember getting some better results with flat based Sierra Game Kings, around 1/2 inch. Before I put it in the safe 2 years ago, I did try some 95 gr Nosler BT's and it did not handle them well at all. If some of the ammunition changes don't turn things around, I may switch the scope out. Everything is tight, but a lot of the initial shooting done with the rifle years ago was with an old 3.5 x 10 AO Leupold. The 4.5 x 14 Leupold AO that is on it now was purchased used and I don't have a history with it.

Thanks

 

[ar15topgun]

You might try scoping the crown. Maybe have it touched up just for good measure.

 

[ShaneG.]

You might try backing them off the lands. This was suggested to me recently while working gwith 87s and groups tightened up in one of my rifles. I am about .025" off at the moment.

 

[Knotwild]

Thanks for every idea to try. I hope to get to the range tomorrow and start trying some out. I did check the crown with a 10 power loupe and it looks good. It should be fun.....once I start finding something concrete on the paper.

 

[Knotwild]

Updates
I was able to shoot a few groups today, but only had the IMR 4350 to use for powder. Oldroper, if you could give me a starting point for IMR 3031, I have a few pounds of that. I thought I had some IMR 4064, but didn't. In the past I tried some Federal 210 Match, but it did not like them at all. I cleaned the rifle and fired 2 fowling shots, all primers were Federal 210. On with today's results..

1: 87 gr Vmax, 44 gr IMR 4350. 0.085 off the lands, 1.297", size due to lateral dispersion. 5 shots.

2: Factory Federal 80 gr. PSP flat base, 0.085 off the lands (from the factory), 1.069", size due to lateral
dispersion. 5 shots.

3: 87 gr Vmax, 45.2 gr IMR 4350, 0.085 off the lands, Federal brass, 0.757". Two touching and one flier. 3 shots.

4: 87 gr Vmax, 46.0 IMR 4350, 0.085 off the lands, Federal brass, 1.057". Two touching and one flier. 3 shots.

5: 87 gr Vmax, 45.2 gr IMR 4350, 0.065 off the lands, Nosler brass, 1.467" Lateral dispersion, 2 close and 1 flier.

6: 87 gr. Vmax, 48.2 IMR 4350, 0.036 off the lands, Nosler brass, 1.412", Lateral dispersion, 2 close and 1 flier.

7: 70gr. Nosler BT, 45.2 IMR 4350, 0.005 off the lands, Federal brass, 0.952". Classic triangle shape.

I realize that ideally I should be shooting more than one group with each combination, but my idea is to see what is working and focus on those components and load measurements. Plus, I am semi unemployed and have to conserve what I can.

From what I see, the Federal brass is working a little better than the Nosler, 45.2 gr seems better than more powder, and the short seating depth is best.

I don't have but about 10 pieces of Federal brass, so I will have to try and round up some more. The 70 gr Nosler BT group at least shows a shape that indicates adjusting the powder charge and seating depth might shrink it down. But the primary purpose of this rifle right now is to kill deer and I would like something a little heavier. The shorter Nosler also indicates that a shorter bullet, i.e. flat base, might give better results. Then again, The original load I used years ago was Federal brass and Sierra 85 gr. soft points. With these, it would consistently shoot 0.50", no sweat. If I can find some, I might give the 85 gr. partition a shot.

This rifle should be capable of 1/2" all day long and that makes this frustrating. Thanks for reading and thanks for the advice.

 

[1shot]

After reading all these posts, I'm now confirmed that I'm on the right track. I shoot a 30" 1-8 twist 243 AI for mid range matches, and I use both H-4350 and H-4831 sc. These powders perform great in my set-up.
I hope this helps,
Lloyd

 

[jcampbellsmith]

.... Two touching and one flier....

There's a theme here. It's your rifle/scope or your brass prep that's the problem. Nothing wrong with the loads themselves in my opinion.

I hope you get it sorted out, but these issues can take a long time to get to the bottom of.

Good luck.

JCS

 

[Knotwild]

Thanks JCS, but note that there are other themes present also; there is no two in and one out with the shorter (80 and 70 gr bullets). I think bullet length is playing a part here in this particular rifle. I am going to measure the length to the contact point for the lands using a Sinclair bullet comparator. Also, the Federal brass is putting in smaller groups.

I am not really prepping the brass as such because I don't have the tools to do so. I simply clean it, neck size it, and shoot it. Right now I don't have a way to manage neck tension or to measure how much or even if the shoulder is bumped.

I guess I will try full length sizing a few rounds of groups, order some of the 85 gr Sierra soft points I used to shoot, and save swapping out scopes for last.

I will keep posting my steps and trying suggestions until I get some results.

 

[stacy]

KNOTWILD
Don't feel bad because I have a new rifle doing the exact same thing 2 in one hole 1 flier 1'' away shot today 6 shots 1,3, 4 were .300's shots 2,5,6 were 300's 1'' away.I was shooting H-4350 210m 85gr BTHP lapua brass same thing yours is doing w/every group those 6rds were shot at same point of aim getting to frustrating.Check this rifle over over over again with know luck.