.224 90 vld
- Thread starter double g
- Start date
jonbearman
I live in new york state,how unfortunate !
1in6.5 minimum according to everything I have read as I dont shoot that heavy.
The old conventional wisdom was a 6.5 twist. Folks more recently have been running them with much slower twists (7" to 7.5" or even a few with a 1:7.7"), and that seems to be the key to getting them to shoot.
I've tried them in a 1:7.25", and they work really well when they work, and when they don't... well, it's frustrating. (and it doesn't seem to be a stability issue, just a very finicky bullet) I think even with the recent interest in .223 Palma guns (when the rules were changed a few years ago), most folks have given up on the .223 with 90s again. I have.
I've tried them in a 1:7.25", and they work really well when they work, and when they don't... well, it's frustrating. (and it doesn't seem to be a stability issue, just a very finicky bullet) I think even with the recent interest in .223 Palma guns (when the rules were changed a few years ago), most folks have given up on the .223 with 90s again. I have.
I've found 90gn Berger and JLK VLDs work fine in True-Flite 1-7" twist 6-groove barrels, MVs at 2,800-2,900 fps.
I've also built a budget F/TR club-shooter's rifle by simply rebarrelling a Savage 12 LRPV varminter with its HS-Precision plastic stock to .223 with a Bartlein Light Palma Profile barrel cropped at 26-inches and with 1-7.5" twist, standard 0.224-cal internal dimensions and four grooves. It will shoot the VLDs OK, but really prefers the 90gn Berger BTLR which will give sub 0.25-MOA groups at ~2,650 fps MV and shoots very nicely up to at least 600 yards, the furthest I've tried it.
All are chambered to suit 90s seated right out. I've got Dave Kiff's much shorter throated '.223 Rem ISSF' chamber reamer now which gives a set-up close to that used very successfully by Bob Pitcairn in Target Rifle / Palma with a mixture of 80s and 90s and will use that the next time I have a 223 rebarrelled.
(The metal bits from this rifle will go into one of Gary Eliseo's CSS S1 chassis stocks later this year. It should make a very nice to handle short-range F/TR rig in this form.)
I've also built a budget F/TR club-shooter's rifle by simply rebarrelling a Savage 12 LRPV varminter with its HS-Precision plastic stock to .223 with a Bartlein Light Palma Profile barrel cropped at 26-inches and with 1-7.5" twist, standard 0.224-cal internal dimensions and four grooves. It will shoot the VLDs OK, but really prefers the 90gn Berger BTLR which will give sub 0.25-MOA groups at ~2,650 fps MV and shoots very nicely up to at least 600 yards, the furthest I've tried it.
All are chambered to suit 90s seated right out. I've got Dave Kiff's much shorter throated '.223 Rem ISSF' chamber reamer now which gives a set-up close to that used very successfully by Bob Pitcairn in Target Rifle / Palma with a mixture of 80s and 90s and will use that the next time I have a 223 rebarrelled.
(The metal bits from this rifle will go into one of Gary Eliseo's CSS S1 chassis stocks later this year. It should make a very nice to handle short-range F/TR rig in this form.)
Last June I ordered two .224 barrels from Kreiger. One a 6.5 twist the other a 7 twist. I went with the 6.5 twist as my intention is to shoot 1,000 yards with it. I have only been to the range twice with it but the results are very good. I spec'd a JGS reamer with plenty of free bore for the 90 VLD's but don't recall the exact measurement. I have a Savage LRPV with a Factory 9 twist that handles Berger 80 VLD's nicely. When that barrel is gone I plan to put the 7 Twist Kreiger on the Savage.
My dad has no issues with the Berger 90gr. VLD's through a 28", 1-7" twist Krieger.
Shawn
Shawn
I have tried the 90 gr. Berger VLD in my Savage LRPV 1-7 twist, .223 used in factory class competition from bench. They shot very well at 100 yds., but opened considerably at 500. I went back to the 80 gr. VLD. Loaded the 90's with 25.0 grs. Varget CCI BR4 jammed .010".
I will try the 90 gr. BTLR recommended by Laurie. BTW Laurie, what is your best load for this bullet?
I will try the 90 gr. BTLR recommended by Laurie. BTW Laurie, what is your best load for this bullet?
I shot 90 VLD JLK's at Perry out of a gas gun - won one of the LR 1K Service rifle trophies with it - bullets went through a 3 groove PacNor 6.5 twist at about 2680fps IIRC. Very very small SD's. (singel digits) Made the Palma 20 (SR) with the same load - if this helps at all. Held spectacular elevation - a little twitchy in wind at 1K.
Several of us started shooting JLK 90 VLDs out of our AR service rifles in NRA XC HP in 2001. We all used 6.5tw bbls - mine were PacNor 3-groove, while two of my buddies used Kriegers. My initial loads were with N540, which gave just over 2700fps, but were right on the edge - bump the charge .2gr, and groups went wild. Switched to N550, and had much better luck; not so much with velocity, but with a powder that wasn't so erratic at the top end. One of the guys brought a bunch of these JLKs back from Perry in '03, and we all had no end of problems getting them to shoot accurately. I wound up abandoning both 6.5tw bbls & the 90s.
Fast forward several years to the availability of Berger's 90s - both the VLD & LRBT. I bought a few boxes of both, largely out of curiosity. Tried them in a PacNor 4-groove 1:7.5tw on a M70 action, and found that they shot pretty well, even some of the problematic JLK 90s from years previous. I read all of Laurie's posts on LRTargetShooting, and finally ordered a 30" Bartlein 5R in 7.2tw, and used it on my Eliseo R5, which has a Pierce TG action that I'd ordered with a spare bolt with .378" boltface. It shoots the Bergers & JLKs very well, even out to 1000yds. I don't find the VLDs to be all that difficult to tune. In fact, I've shot the Bergers from .020" jump to .020" jam, and had excellent results. Too bad Berger didn't sell enough of the 90 LRBTs to keep them in their line-up - they're even easier to get to shoot.
Looking back on the 'bad' JLK 90s - I recently read about bullets 'stripping' their cores in very fast-twist bbls in Harold Vaughn's "Rifle Accuracy Facts". Sounds to me like a very plausible explanation for the accuracy problems we had with those bullets, especially since they shoot considerably better in that PacNor 7.5tw bbl than they did in my 6.5's. BTW - one of my 6.5tw AR bbls blew up almost every type of bullet that I tried in it - JLK 80VLDs, Nosler & Sierra 69s, etc. The maker replaced it with a 7.7tw bbl at no charge, but that experience further soured me on the 90s, since at that point in time, I still believed the 6.5tw was a necessity to get the 90s stabilized.
Now that I know better, I'm having a lot of fun shooting the 90s again - even went out to 1400yds with Berger 90 VLDs out of a 223 AI bolt rifle with a 26" Krieger 1:7tw bbl. Litz's PMS ballistic program predicts that they go sub-sonic at 1267yds when launched at a MV of 2820fps, but even so, they remained stable, as my hits on the 1300 & 1400yd targets were still nice round impacts.
Fast forward several years to the availability of Berger's 90s - both the VLD & LRBT. I bought a few boxes of both, largely out of curiosity. Tried them in a PacNor 4-groove 1:7.5tw on a M70 action, and found that they shot pretty well, even some of the problematic JLK 90s from years previous. I read all of Laurie's posts on LRTargetShooting, and finally ordered a 30" Bartlein 5R in 7.2tw, and used it on my Eliseo R5, which has a Pierce TG action that I'd ordered with a spare bolt with .378" boltface. It shoots the Bergers & JLKs very well, even out to 1000yds. I don't find the VLDs to be all that difficult to tune. In fact, I've shot the Bergers from .020" jump to .020" jam, and had excellent results. Too bad Berger didn't sell enough of the 90 LRBTs to keep them in their line-up - they're even easier to get to shoot.
Looking back on the 'bad' JLK 90s - I recently read about bullets 'stripping' their cores in very fast-twist bbls in Harold Vaughn's "Rifle Accuracy Facts". Sounds to me like a very plausible explanation for the accuracy problems we had with those bullets, especially since they shoot considerably better in that PacNor 7.5tw bbl than they did in my 6.5's. BTW - one of my 6.5tw AR bbls blew up almost every type of bullet that I tried in it - JLK 80VLDs, Nosler & Sierra 69s, etc. The maker replaced it with a 7.7tw bbl at no charge, but that experience further soured me on the 90s, since at that point in time, I still believed the 6.5tw was a necessity to get the 90s stabilized.
Now that I know better, I'm having a lot of fun shooting the 90s again - even went out to 1400yds with Berger 90 VLDs out of a 223 AI bolt rifle with a 26" Krieger 1:7tw bbl. Litz's PMS ballistic program predicts that they go sub-sonic at 1267yds when launched at a MV of 2820fps, but even so, they remained stable, as my hits on the 1300 & 1400yd targets were still nice round impacts.
There is a very good summary of the issues and how to make 223R work with 90s in the current issue of the DCRA 'Canadian Rifleman' association Journal.
http://www.dcra.ca/Marksman/Marksman%20Summer%20Autumn%202012.pdf
pages 35-38 'A Mouse on Steroids' by Bob Pitcairn. The only thing I'd disagree about is his use of a 1-6.5" twist, although he does say his 1-7" twist barrel seems to perform a little better. Mr Pitcairn reckons Viht N150 is the ideal 223/90 powder allied to the CCI-450 SRM and also says it is on a par with VarGet for temperature consistency, an even bigger issue with 223 than 308 because of the small case. His PT&G developed reamer uses 0.164" freebore which isn't too far from David Kiff's recent addition, the .223 Rem ISSF with 0.169", this sort of length providing a good compromise that will shoot 90s well, but still suit 80s. He reckons 2,850 fps MV is the magic number for the 90gn VLD and around 2,825 fps for the BTLR, allied to bullet pointing for a 5% BC improvement.
tenring - my 90gn BTLR load for shorter ranges in the rebarrelled Savage varminter is Lapua match case, CCI-450 and 23.9gn Viht N150 for about 2,650 fps out of a 26" barrel. BUT .... that's in the super long-throat chamber with 2.690" resulting COAL. Deeper seated bullets will need lower charges.
http://www.dcra.ca/Marksman/Marksman%20Summer%20Autumn%202012.pdf
pages 35-38 'A Mouse on Steroids' by Bob Pitcairn. The only thing I'd disagree about is his use of a 1-6.5" twist, although he does say his 1-7" twist barrel seems to perform a little better. Mr Pitcairn reckons Viht N150 is the ideal 223/90 powder allied to the CCI-450 SRM and also says it is on a par with VarGet for temperature consistency, an even bigger issue with 223 than 308 because of the small case. His PT&G developed reamer uses 0.164" freebore which isn't too far from David Kiff's recent addition, the .223 Rem ISSF with 0.169", this sort of length providing a good compromise that will shoot 90s well, but still suit 80s. He reckons 2,850 fps MV is the magic number for the 90gn VLD and around 2,825 fps for the BTLR, allied to bullet pointing for a 5% BC improvement.
tenring - my 90gn BTLR load for shorter ranges in the rebarrelled Savage varminter is Lapua match case, CCI-450 and 23.9gn Viht N150 for about 2,650 fps out of a 26" barrel. BUT .... that's in the super long-throat chamber with 2.690" resulting COAL. Deeper seated bullets will need lower charges.
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