F-class guys are running nuclear loads in a 30” barrel bolt gun with brass only lasting a couple firings to get just a little over that.
Do tell.
.224" 88 gr ELD-m's in a Ruger precision rifle?
- Thread starter Dave Zander
- Start date
Do tell.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Dave - unless you're willing to have the rifle re-barreled, or use a Uni-throater to lengthen the factory freebore so it can accommodate heavy bullets with an exceptionally long bearing surface like the 88 ELDM, your best bet is to select the highest BC bullet(s) with a base-to-ogive measurement suitable for the freebore the rifle does have. In general, as bullet weight goes up, so does BC. Further, the increased velocity of a lighter, lower BC bullet will only very rarely trump the BC of the heavier, slower offering. In fairness, I am aware of a couple exceptions to this general observation where a lighter, lower BC bullet actually has a very high BC for its weight and may equal, or slightly outperform a bullet from the next heavier weight class due to the increased velocity that can be obtained. But that is not the general trend. You can readily see this by inputting realistic velocities for bullets with different weights and BCs into a ballistic calculator such as JBM Ballistics. What you will find is that unless the BCs are relatively close to begin with, you generally cannot push the lighter, lower BC bullet fast enough at safe operating pressure to overcome the BC deficit.
As an exercise, I measured the BTO dimension of several .224" cal bullets I have on hand using a Sinclair Comparator insert, which contacts the ogive very close to the end of the bearing surface (as opposed to the Hornady comparator insert, which has a slightly smaller hole and seats farther out on the ogive from the top of the bearing surface). Here are the results (average of 5 bullets measured for each):
What you can see is that the 88 ELDM has the longest BTO dimension of any of these bullets. In fact, the BTO of the Berger 80.5 Fullbore would allow you to remove approximately 0.110" of bullet shank/boattail out of the case when seated at a comparable seating depth, thereby increasing your effective case volume. Whether that would allow for a sufficient increase in velocity with the 80.5 Fullbore relative to the 88s ELDMs in your setup to allow performance on par with the 88s in light of the substantial BC deficit the 80.5 has can only be determined empirically, or through the use of a ballistic calculator if you have a good idea of the velocities where each bullet will tune in. Regardless, this type of "paper" exercise can be useful when trying to decide which bullet(s) are likely to work well with the existing freebore of your rifle, allowing the best combination of BC and velocity.
You mentioned the idea of shooting out to 1000 yd with this setup. Not that it can't be done with one of the ~80 gr bullets, but depending on your discipline or intended purpose, the 80s will require a much higher degree of wind reading ability on your part if there's much wind where you typically shoot. Don't get me wrong, people definitely have successfully used the ~80s out to 1000 yd, but it wouldn't be my first choice. I have shot the 90 VLDs with some success at 1000 yd in F-TR, and I can tell you that with the 1.0 MOA and 0.5 MOA 10- and X-rings, even the mighty 90 VLD requires some pretty good wind reading skills at 1000 yd when the wind comes up. I mention this mainly help you keep you expectations realistic if you have to go with a lighter, lower BC bullet due to the rifle's chamber/throat dimensions. It's certainly worth a try, but 1000 yd could be a tall order in windy conditions with one of the lighter bullets.
The other thing worth mention is your choice of powders. I noticed there was a pretty fantastic velocity claim in an earlier post in this thread. My guess would be that the only way to achieve that kind of velocity from a relatively short (26") barrel would be to use a double base powder. If you are interested in participating in a discipline such as F-Class or Highpower where long strings of fire and temperature changes of as much as 30 or 40 degrees during the course of a match are possible, I would urge you to resist the lure of high velocity offered by such powders. Under such conditions, marked increases in velocity ES/SD, and possibly blowing primers when it gets hotter in the afternoon are often the result. IMO - it's simply not worth it. If you're not planning on competing, you could likely get away with that approach by letting the rifle cool when necessary, and not shooting really long strings of fire. I personally favor H4895 with any of the bullets listed above and find it to be a be a very good combination of both precision and velocity in the .223 Rem with heavy bullets. It won't net you quite the velocity of some of the double base powders, but as a single base powder it is more resistant to temperature-induced velocity/pressure excursions.
FWIW - don't try to compare the measured BTO values I posted in the Table above with those provided by the different manufacturers. Each has their own method of measurement, which is almost certainly different than the Sinclair comparator insert I used. It would be comparing apples to oranges. The BTO values listed in the Table are directly comparable because they were all measured at the same time with the same comparator insert. Nonetheless, if you wish to compare BTO values provided by the manufacturers, or those listed in a book such as Bryan Litz's "Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets", you can usually get a pretty good idea of which bullets might have a shorter BTO dimension better suited to loading in your rifle, and how the BCs of those bullets compare. Good luck.
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Maybe try a different powder for more speed? I'm guessing you meant 22.5g of Varget above? I've moved to 2000MR with fantastic results. A ball powder will fit better in a small case. I'm using 27-28g in an 80g class bullet and 26.5-27 in a 85.5-90g bullet giving me up to 200 FPS more just by switching powder. Have shown no loss in accuracy. We all know ball is more temp sensitive so develop your loads now, while it's warm outside.
linebaugh
Silver $$ Contributor
I bought a pound of that 2000-mr this week and am scared to use it. Could you give any insight as to what you see for temp sensitivity? Have you tried to purposely cool and warm rounds shot over a chrony for results? Definately looks to be able to push the numbers up a node but if that comes with severe pressure and velocity swings I wonder what its value will be.
I too would be looking to switch to another powder. Varget is a tough choice when working with heavy bullets in the 223. I was loading 69 gr Lapua's at 25.2 grains Varget in a Criterion Match chamber and could not seat the bullet deeper than .010 IN the lands without getting seating depth issues from powder pushing the bullet back out after seating. Lots of crunching going on despite using drop tubes and settling techniques when charging the case. I eventually had to drop down .8 gr to a lower node to explore a .010 off seating that worked better.
When I switched to 73 Bergers, they seated much further out at touch leaving more room for Varget. But when I tried the 80 A-Max, there was no way I'd get good velocity with Varget, simply not enough "boiler room" with so much bullet down in the case.
I switched to CFE223 and got a ton more room for charge and much better velocity.
Ned spelled it out very well, alway learn a lot when he shares his experience. There are many ways to skin the cat depending upon your goals. Some cheap, some not so cheap. If you're set on shooting the heaviest, seat a bullet in a dummy cartridge and at your ideal OAL and take the gun to a smith and have him throat the chamber to your bullet. Not expensive but a note of caution, be sure you can eject a live cartridge should the need arise with your very long optimal OAL. I've removed the ejectors from my Savages, so when shooting the 80's I have release the bolt and slide it back to pick a live round off the head.
My many thanks to Ned for all sharing his wisdom.
When I switched to 73 Bergers, they seated much further out at touch leaving more room for Varget. But when I tried the 80 A-Max, there was no way I'd get good velocity with Varget, simply not enough "boiler room" with so much bullet down in the case.
I switched to CFE223 and got a ton more room for charge and much better velocity.
Ned spelled it out very well, alway learn a lot when he shares his experience. There are many ways to skin the cat depending upon your goals. Some cheap, some not so cheap. If you're set on shooting the heaviest, seat a bullet in a dummy cartridge and at your ideal OAL and take the gun to a smith and have him throat the chamber to your bullet. Not expensive but a note of caution, be sure you can eject a live cartridge should the need arise with your very long optimal OAL. I've removed the ejectors from my Savages, so when shooting the 80's I have release the bolt and slide it back to pick a live round off the head.
My many thanks to Ned for all sharing his wisdom.
Yeah, shooting 80s at 1000 is one of those things you should do if you start feeling too good about yourself. It brings one down to earth in a hurry.
I developed a load last summer shooting 82g bergers out of my 20" 223 ar-15 service rifle. Load is 27g of 2000MR in a basic Wylde chamber, not long throated, and that's shooting in 90-95 degree heat. Of course keep any ammo in the shade at all times but, when shooting XTC this winter at 55 degrees, I had to come up 3/4 minute, at 600 yds for the same zero but didn't loose any accuracy. XTC shooters love 2000MR and it delivers.
In my 30" Palma gun, running the same load 82g berger, I'm over 3000 FPS with no issues. Recently shot the new 85g Nosler RDF with 26.7g (after testing several combos) getting 2925 (same 30" barrel) out of a 500 BC bullet with exceptional accuracy in 90+ degree heat. My advice, develop the load in the heat, adjust your elevation in the winter.
linebaugh
Silver $$ Contributor
thank you. Will do some testing.
I should also mention, the Nosler 70, 77 and 85g RDF's were all developed to be shot at MAG length (short chambered barrels) catering to the PRS shooters. I shoot the 77's in rapid prone. At mag length a ball powder is the way to go. I've used at ton of Tac also but 2000MR out performs it. Either powder drops like a dream, spot on every time.
I'm shooting the 85g RDF in my AR-15 XTC rifle with the same 26.7g load, Wylde chamber, 90+ heat with no issues.
I'm shooting the 85g RDF in my AR-15 XTC rifle with the same 26.7g load, Wylde chamber, 90+ heat with no issues.
the 80 g Hornady eld match is a 485 G1 bc, not 505. typo .And I have a 1:7 twist Barrel.
THe Berger 85.5 hybrid is a good bit shorter on the OAL vs the 88g Hornady. Not sure if the base to ogive is shorter also or not.
I've ordered some to compare.
Thanks for the responses, really appreciate it.
I'm thinking of testing some more at 22.3 grain load and see if the velocity spread stays as good as these 3 shot tests.
Maybe if it does ill try increasing jump to improve group size.
I'm using a rcbs balance beam, a another guy I shot with said I can't read that as accurate as a digital. I told him i was getting a lot of velocity spread (high) compared to when i load my 6.5 cm. he said because of lesser capacity on the .223 vs 6.5 that's why. So more precise charge weights are what he said i needed. others said use different primers. I was using cci450's to start with as thats what the creedmoor likes.
I'm using Lapua small primer Brass on both .223 and 6.5cm.
The scale this fellow recommended was a A&D.
They ain't cheep either.
I'll compare the hornady 88 lengths to ogive to the Berger 85.5 hybrids. I have a Forrester datum kit with the ring for .224"
Should be fine for comparison purposes I would think.
Try some different powders as suggested also. My thinking is to minimize velocity spread so my elevations would be consistent.
I'm shooting steel from 200 to 1000 yards, not F class also FYI.
Also was recommended to use a Lee collet die which I don't use now, currently a standard .223" RCBS full length sizing die and with the forrester datum gage I bump the shoulder back .002". I have a micrometer adjustable seating die.
thanks again. I will report back as I go on this journey.
THe Berger 85.5 hybrid is a good bit shorter on the OAL vs the 88g Hornady. Not sure if the base to ogive is shorter also or not.
I've ordered some to compare.
Thanks for the responses, really appreciate it.
I'm thinking of testing some more at 22.3 grain load and see if the velocity spread stays as good as these 3 shot tests.
Maybe if it does ill try increasing jump to improve group size.
I'm using a rcbs balance beam, a another guy I shot with said I can't read that as accurate as a digital. I told him i was getting a lot of velocity spread (high) compared to when i load my 6.5 cm. he said because of lesser capacity on the .223 vs 6.5 that's why. So more precise charge weights are what he said i needed. others said use different primers. I was using cci450's to start with as thats what the creedmoor likes.
I'm using Lapua small primer Brass on both .223 and 6.5cm.
The scale this fellow recommended was a A&D.
They ain't cheep either.
I'll compare the hornady 88 lengths to ogive to the Berger 85.5 hybrids. I have a Forrester datum kit with the ring for .224"
Should be fine for comparison purposes I would think.
Try some different powders as suggested also. My thinking is to minimize velocity spread so my elevations would be consistent.
I'm shooting steel from 200 to 1000 yards, not F class also FYI.
Also was recommended to use a Lee collet die which I don't use now, currently a standard .223" RCBS full length sizing die and with the forrester datum gage I bump the shoulder back .002". I have a micrometer adjustable seating die.
thanks again. I will report back as I go on this journey.
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Ned and Bose provided some great information, and I will try and add to that. Ive been shooting the 88ELDMs in my 223 Palma rifle with good results from 600 to 1000 yards. My go to powder has been H4895, with either CCI 450s or the Russian small rifle magnum primers and sorted LC brass. I had a reamer made up to shoot the heavies and the freebore is around .200. I can run the 88s at 2900 with no strain and have good case life and accuracy. Im a sling shooter, and the best score at 1000 so far has been 199-12X, with good elevation. The rifle is a Rem 700 with a 30 inch Brux barrel, in a tube gun stock. I picked up some 85.5s at Lodi last month for testing after seeing several people using them with excellent results during the matches there. All of my measurements are using the Sinclair nut for comparisons. My measurements of the bullets are as follows:
88 ELDM base to ogive- 1.645
85.5 Berger BTO-1.560
88 ELDM Bearing surface-.468
85.5 Bearing surface- .379
So the 85.5 is about .085 shorter in BTO and has about .089 less bearing surface that the 88.
In my rifle the 85.5 touches the lands at about 2.650. The closest 80 grain-ish bullet that has about the same BTO as the 85.5 is the 80.5 Berger Fullbore (great bullet by the way), which measures at about 1.580. To have about .150 of the 85.5 in the neck I will be jumping them about 50 thousandths, but the Hybrids dont seem to be jump sensitive. Im curious to see if they shoot as good as the 88s.
88 ELDM base to ogive- 1.645
85.5 Berger BTO-1.560
88 ELDM Bearing surface-.468
85.5 Bearing surface- .379
So the 85.5 is about .085 shorter in BTO and has about .089 less bearing surface that the 88.
In my rifle the 85.5 touches the lands at about 2.650. The closest 80 grain-ish bullet that has about the same BTO as the 85.5 is the 80.5 Berger Fullbore (great bullet by the way), which measures at about 1.580. To have about .150 of the 85.5 in the neck I will be jumping them about 50 thousandths, but the Hybrids dont seem to be jump sensitive. Im curious to see if they shoot as good as the 88s.
I tried increasing the jump on the 88g from .010" to .022"Targets and info above. I seem to be getting so much more velocity with the 80's and the fact I have a 20" barrel I think I'm actually better off with the lighter bullet(80) so far. When i plug the info into my Kestral the 80's have less drift than the 88's.
I'm getting about 300 FPS more with the 80's.
I should have the Berger 85.5g Hybrids this tuesday. Will be loading some those up next week see what I can get out of them velocity/accuracy wise.
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No, not the 82g or 85g loads. Those are loaded long, 20k off the lands for 600 yard shooting. But, I do shoot 26.0g 2000MR with a 77g nosler CC at mag length shooting 200 yards, and a 77g nosler RDF with 26.6g 2000MR at mag length shooting 300 yards.
That's 300 FPS more than Dave Zander. PP2k will deliver the speed in smaller cases. I'm Not saying speed is everything but when you're trying to hit something 1000 yds away, it certainly comes into play.
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