223Rem FTR Build

[bench]

Fellas,
Need some advice on a 223 build for long range FTR and and want to start the build around the bullet first.
What is your bullet of choice or should I just go with the 90gr Berger VLD or Sierra bullets or should I go with a bit lighter bullet.
I have not been around any 223 shooters to see what they are using.

 

[SheepDog]

Look at the magazine to find out what the overall length can be. That may determine the case capacity with longer bullets. The case capacity will determine, to a large degree, the maximum velocity which will determine range to a large degree. It is a good idea to start your build with the bullet because then you can buy a barrel with rifling twist to match. You can usually shoot lighter bullets in tight twists but not the longer bullets in the more relaxed twist.
As a hunter I want a tight twist so the bullet is less likely to upset on target but the target shooters want a twist that just stabilizes the bullet so the point tracks with the trajectory. After the bullet goes through the paper its job is done.

 

[bench]

SheepDog,
This will be set up as a single shot so will not be limited to mag length.

 

[Laurie]

For 'Long-Range' usually defined as 'beyond 600 yards' for prone known-distance competition, you are pretty well restricted to the 90s which means the Berger VLD (as the BT version was discontinued a few years back); JLK VLD (??) - we used to see them over here in the UK but not for some years, so I don't know if they're still available in the US - and the Sierra MK.

There were serious doubts about the SMK until recently with reports of blow-ups in flight at MVs beyond ~2,650 fps. However, if you do a search of these forums, there are recent and rather more encouraging reports suggesting that Sierra has succeeded in improving it from a 600 yard XTC bullet for 20-inch barrel AR-15s to one suitable for L-R FTR. I've not managed to see for myself as they're very rare and (by Sierra standards) very expensive in the UK.

The 80.5gn Berger Target BT Fullbore is a fine bullet and can be driven fast in an FTR rifle. IME it works in the PT&G 0.169" FB ISSF chamber. It makes an excellent 200-600 yard bullet 800 at a pinch, but likely gives up a bit too much ballistically to the 90s (not to mention 308 Win) at 900 and 1,000 yards.

Bryan Litz has been asked on more than one occasion if he has a 0.224" long-range Berger Hybrid design in the pipeline and the answer is a conditional yes, but it is unlikely to be a 90 if it ever appears. Bryan has never been entirely happy with the existing 90gn VLD - I can only assume its length in relation to the calibre pushes the design envelope a bit too far, or maybe asks too much of the jacket manufacturer - so he says a replacement will most likely be in the low to mid 80s weight band, eg 82-85gn.

You need a 1 in 7" twist barrel as a minimum - many are moving to slightly faster rates now around 6.75", 6.8" rather than the full 6.5" that Sierra says is needed or the Berger twist rate calculator would indicate as optimal. The PT&G ISSF chamber is the one to use. Most people use Lapua brass and desired MVs with the 90gn VLD is ~2,850 fps although in our cooler GB climate, I used to be able to get over 2,900 fps with one 31-inch barrel and without wrecking the brass in a firing or two. There is a great deal on Accurateshooter about loads and rifle build specs.

 

[skiutah02]

You just heard from one very knowledgeable source and if you search his username here along with the following others and "90vld" you will be rewarded. Just thinking off the top on my head so there are others but this will start you down the rabbit hole .

gstaylorg
XTR
rardion

Drew

 

[Ned Ludd]

Or just visually scan through the last 5 pages or so of the "Small stuff--22s 17s etc" forum. You'll find the topic of shooting .223 Rem in F-TR solidly represented. I notice your post states the rifle will be for "long range" F-TR. If you really mean that (i.e. 800/900/1000 yd), there is only one choice, the 90 VLD. Anything else and you'll be giving up performance unnecessarily. Just be aware that many will question your choice (and perhaps your sanity) of using a .223 for LR anyhow. Might as well start at the very top of the heap with the bullet you choose. LOTS of expertise here at Accurate Shooter, as Drew noted. Read through a few pages at the .22 cal, I know there are some .223 F-TR 90 VLD threads in there. Post again if you have other questions.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Great information from these experienced LR FTR shooters. I use one for MR, I don't have enough sanity to go to 1000, also this rifle isn't built for it.

 

[Barrel Nut]

You may get lucky and find that you can shoot Berger VLD 90gr bullets reliably, but don't count on it. I've shot a few thousand of them in an attempt to find a reliable 600 yd F/TR recipe and I'm about to give up on them with my 30" 1:6.5 twist barrel like I eventually did with my 26" 1:7 twist barrel. I've shot plenty of acceptable 5 shot groups while testing at 100 yards in the 3's and sometimes in the 2's, followed immediately by a group in the 8's or worse. I just can't count on them and I'm currently working up a test of the Sierra 90's which are now pointed at the factory as well as fine tuning some Berger VLD 80gr loads.

Last weekend I lost a 600 yd F/TR match shooting the VLD 90's to a young girl shooting VLD 80's in a box-stock Savage rifle. I don't want the 90's to get the best of me, but at some point I'm going to say enough-is-enough. I used to win F/TR on a regular basis shooting VLD 80's but wins are few and far between with the 90's.

Of course, your experience may be different. My F-Open and/or 600 yd BR gun is a simple 6mm BR Norma. Last weekend I shot both high score and smallest group with it and I would say that load work-up for that caliber is nearly a no-brainer. Sad to say the .223 VLD 90's are not kind to me at all and while you may find instant success, I would not expect it to be easy.

Good luck.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Seating depth and velocity are key with the 90s. In a 30" barrel, you want to be in the 2815-2825 fps range with Varget, 2840-2850 fps range with H4895. Most find about .010" into the lands gives the best grouping, although a few have had success soft seating at the lands. I'm one of the few that jumps them. The sweet spot for me has been .015" to .018" off the lands. Once you find the optimal seating depth, you'll know.

 

[Twitchy]

You may get lucky and find that you can shoot Berger VLD 90gr bullets reliably, but don't count on it. I've shot a few thousand of them in an attempt to find a reliable 600 yd F/TR recipe and I'm about to give up on them with my 30" 1:6.5 twist barrel like I eventually did with my 26" 1:7 twist barrel. I've shot plenty of acceptable 5 shot groups while testing at 100 yards in the 3's and sometimes in the 2's, followed immediately by a group in the 8's or worse. I just can't count on them and I'm currently working up a test of the Sierra 90's which are now pointed at the factory as well as fine tuning some Berger VLD 80gr loads.

Last weekend I lost a 600 yd F/TR match shooting the VLD 90's to a young girl shooting VLD 80's in a box-stock Savage rifle. I don't want the 90's to get the best of me, but at some point I'm going to say enough-is-enough. I used to win F/TR on a regular basis shooting VLD 80's but wins are few and far between with the 90's.

Of course, your experience may be different. My F-Open and/or 600 yd BR gun is a simple 6mm BR Norma. Last weekend I shot both high score and smallest group with it and I would say that load work-up for that caliber is nearly a no-brainer. Sad to say the .223 VLD 90's are not kind to me at all and while you may find instant success, I would not expect it to be easy.

Good luck.

What rifle and barrel brand? Where'd you find a the barrel? I'm in the planning stages of a new build to upgrade my beater 223. It shoots 80s great so far, but I'm itching to try the 90s.

 

[Barrel Nut]

What rifle and barrel brand? Where'd you find a the barrel? I'm in the planning stages of a new build to upgrade my beater 223. It shoots 80s great so far, but I'm itching to try the 90s.

I built the rifle using a Savage Target Action, a PacNor 30" 1:6.5 twist barrel, and a McMillan stock.

It shoots VLD 90's well, but only sometimes. For example, the best 5 shot group with the VLD 90gr bullet at 100 yards is .109 MOA. The best ten 5-shot groups average a respectable .240 MOA. Unfortunately, the average for all my carefully documented 5 shot groups at 100yards is .659 MOA which is definitely not good enough to be competitive in F/TR at 600 yards.

I've had good success at MVs around 2840 fps but I've also tried MV's as low as 2350fps and as high as 3019 with varying success. I've experimented with seating depths varying from .020" jam all the way out to .120" jump. I'm currently using a .010" jam.

My prep and loading routine follows all the usual steps short of weighing primers and cutting powder kernels; i.e. I weigh my powder to the nearest whole kernel which is right about .02gr., I weight-sort my bullets and cases, etc.

As you can see, this combination CAN shoot good groups, but it won't do it all the time. It's frustrating to shoot a nice string of several 10's and X's followed by an 8 and then more 10's and X's and another damned 8.

 

[bench]

My eyes and brain are toast as I just read all 155 pages of (small Stuff) looking at all 223 related info.
I must say that I must be the smartest man alive now when it comes to 223 loads,bullets,chamber specs---LOL
I must say thank you to all the good info in all 155 pages and a special thanks to Laurie and Gstaylorg
Now its time to get this build started
Bench

 

[JRS]

My eyes and brain are toast as I just read all 155 pages of (small Stuff) looking at all 223 related info.
I must say that I must be the smartest man alive now when it comes to 223 loads,bullets,chamber specs---LOL
I must say thank you to all the good info in all 155 pages and a special thanks to Laurie and Gstaylorg
Now its time to get this build started
Bench

When you start looking for components, contact me. I have a new/unused polished Borden action and new JGS .223 reamer.

 

[expiper]

When you start looking for components, contact me. I have a new/unused polished Borden action and new JGS .223 reamer.

Does the Borden action feature cone breaching when using .223 bolt face,,,???,,,,I feel that it is VERY benificial for smooth ctg feeding ....Roger

 

[JRS]

Does the Borden action feature cone breaching when using .223 bolt face,,,???,,,,I feel that it is VERY benificial for smooth ctg feeding ....Roger

Yes Roger. It is the BRM, RT/RT, fully polished, polished 20MOA picatinny rail, pinned recoil lug and Borden blueprinted Jewel trigger. The JGS reamer is the 5.56 Target reamer, print number 0518.

Edit: I can also offer a new/unused SEB JoyPod with PodPad.

 

[mysticplayer]

I went down this road years back.

7 twist Shilen.. I found button rifle was easier on the thin jackets vs the cut rifle

28" is enough... 30" cause you can but there was no speed advantage. No tuning disadvantage either so...

IMR4007SSC.. was the right powder burn but the powder itself proved to be a problem and has been discontinued. Varget was my plan B and it worked superbly with options lighter then 90gr. Pressures became higher then I liked pushing the 90's hard. never tried Viht powders but others have with good success. You need something between varget and H4350 with a small grain size.

90gr VLD and I ended up using JLKs.. unfortunately, the last batch had jacket issues and blew up in flight. That owner wouldn't help so I moved on. No idea on the new owner nor the product being produced today.

The Berger 90gr BT was a gem... of course, it got discontinued cause it didn't have the BC numbers to "work. Pity, it was a bullet that flew very well.

80.5, 82gr BT, 80gr VLD Bergers would be a lot easier to set up. Never shot the 90gr MK's

I used CCI450 primers in Win cases... set the ogive off the lands to suit the bullet style and away you go.

For chamber, start with a 223 Rem and throat accordingly for the OAL to suit the bullet. 223 Wylde can work in a pinch but if stamped on an FTR barrel, it will be in OPEN.

Get a very good milligram scale and keep charges to within a kernel of varget (or whatever). Accuracy can be very good. At 1000yds, it just can't keep up with the heavier 30cal bullets.... unfortunately. I moved to the 308 and have figured out ways to keep recoil at bay.

For mid range, a good 223 driven well is going to be tough to beat. LR, it is going to be an uphill fight.

Jerry