223 vs 22-250

[Steve3]

Please be careful with your choices.

Every hunter approaches things differently, we all have a different set of ethics and limits. These often change with time and experience.

But in the end to be responsible hunters we must have a sound understanding of the ballistics of our firearm and choice of cartridges/loads. We must also have an understanding of the physical structure of the animal we hunt.

Personally when hunting I never attempt to reinvent the wheel, I follow chosen practices that have been used before.

The 223 is a great cartridge but I don't' see it much different than the 222.

I remember reading a very long ballistics report several years back that was written by a trauma surgeon at a big inner-city hospital. His conclusion, maximum trauma (big holes, severe internal tissue/organ damage) real fast generally causes quicker death.

Please read up on terminal velocity. Make sure you know how your bullet is going to act on target. A hunting bullet may not expand fully real close, it may have a lower speed which it needs to work. Same goes if it is too far out, it may be too slow to expand. You can always call the bullet makers and ask them about their products. I call Sierra all the time. If you look at Long Range Hunter (forum) you may be able to find this close up expansion failure information.

Best,
Steve

 

[Juma]

Let me get this right, you are going to shoot a treed mountain lion with a 22 anything. I hope in your next life you come back as a mountain lion.

Never shot a mountain lion but I bet if you shoved a 55gr Barnes TSX into it it would come out a tree very dead. Reason this pill kills all big deer in NZ very dead and some of them are way bigger than a mountain lion. World's best projectile by far.

 

[yenak]

The mountain lion I shot was with a 22 mag. I recently bought a FN TSR 223 9 twist can't say enough good about it. I'm shooting the 60 V Max out of it.

 

[Brians356]

Very interesting religious argument ("223 vs 22-250" always is!)

Now as to this lethality on lion aspect: I have to chuckle because in my youth in N. Idaho all deer and elk hunters were meat hunters, and countless elk were taken with 30-30, 32 Special, 250 Savage, 243 Win, even 30 Carbine. Too many people who think there is a "consensus" minimum cartridge for game simply have no field experience harvesting with the so-called "inadequate" cartridges. Get close; get a well-placed shot; get out the cutlery. I know Nez Perce Indians who get close enough to an elk to smell it, then shoot it right behind the ear with a 22 Magnum - like dropping a cow in a feedlot.

It wouldn't have occurred to me to hunt lions with a 223 or 22-250, but I wouldn't tell someone who did it was unethical, any more than I would tell my uncle Ralph he was wrong to hunt elk for 40 years with his 243.

 

[effendude]

I am heading out to Idaho in a week to help track for a few friends who want a mtn. lion. The outfitter cherishes his dogs so he might frown on the rimfires for lions but I know it is often used by the locals. Mtn. lions are not hard to kill, but don't let them come out of a tree wounded and mad.

As a kid growing up on a farm in Wisconsin, we had quite a problem with feral dogs. I carried an old Iver Johnson single shot .22 wherever I went, day and night as soon as I passed hunter safety. I would guess I shot close to 50 dogs of all sizes in those 5 years before I left for college. From small dogs to husky/german shepard size, they all died quickly if shot in the vitals. I haven't been undergunned since, but never underestimate the power of a well placed bullet.

My PH and I were talking one day this fall about rifles. He stated if South Africa restricted him to 2 rifles, he would have a .22 Hornet and a .375 H&H. I was surprised by the statement about the Hornet. He said the Hornet does a fine job on thin skinned game and the .375 does everything else. This PH hunts the big 5 too.

Pick your shot and have fun with whatever you choose.
Scott

 

[Brians356]

News flash... Ruger American 22-250 has a one in ten twist...ONE IN TEN..... This puts the 22-250 in a more competative stance for heavier bullits. Cant tell but they look like a cross between a Savage and Tikka...anyone know anything about this rifle?

I have to say, I have completely overlooked the Ruger American Rifle. I'm pretty intrigued. There could be one in my future in something like 7mm-08.

Here's a G&A review from 2012:

http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/all-american-ruger-american-rifle-review/

 

[effendude]

Scott,

While in N. Idaho, be prepared for a wolf encounter as well. I think you need to buy a tag. There are a lot of guys up there who have taken up wolf hunting (and trapping) as one of their main winter activities.

Here is the ID web site for tracking the status of the Idaho wolf season, and the harvest reports:

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/hunt/?getpage=121

Then there are the "fool hen" grouse up there, so carrying a 22 pistol is good for daily camp meat.

Good luck!

I have been out there many times, and I still have a wolf tag from my wife's trip in January. I will be ready...
Scott

 

[Webster]

Build what you want in any twist. There's actions, barrels and Boyds for stocks, cheap. Not hard to just take a factory rifle and barrel. Keep your eyes open for deals.

Try to buy the rifle with the barrel twist you want. It cost about $550 to buy a quality barrel and have it chambered and installed. You don't want to add $500 to the cost of the rifle just to get the twist rate you want. Most reloading manuals and bullets manufacturers give the twist rates for the bullets they make. Someone on 6BR.com pointed out to me how superior the 75 gr bullets are in a high velocity 22 cal rifle. Run some numbers through Bergers ballistics program for 55 and 75 gr bullets and look at the drop and wing drift at around 300 yards and farther. I was shocked at how good the 75 gr bullet was at distance.

If you get a 14 twist you shouldn't get accuracy with bullets around 55 grains and up. 55 might be OK? The lighter bullets should be OK unless you want to shoot beyond 350--400 yards and it isn't windy.

Sierra's manual
52 and 53 Match King 12 or 14 twist
69 gr MK 7-10 twist
77 gr MK 7-8 twist
80 gr MK 7-8 twist

Just ran some numbers through the Berger ballistics program. I don't have the info from an old post. The 50 gr Berger Match FB Varmint bullet at 3800 fps is better than the Sierra 77 HPBT MK at 3150 fps shoots flatter out to 1000 yrds. After 600 yrds. the 77 gr bullet has less wind drift. I believe the article I read about 4 months ago was by a Canadian position competitor shooting a 223. I don't remember what bullet he was using but his results were different than what I just calculated. His numbers looked real??? Looks like I would pick a 12 twist second choice 14.

 

[ballistic64]

If I couldn't cleanly dispatch a treed lion with a 223, I think I'd hang up hunting.

 

[Snuggie]

I have a Rem 700 Varmint in 22-250. 12 twist. Bbl is hand lapped,bolt also,bedded, 2.2lb trigger. The 55's are ok but the 40's are great! Put five shots in 1/4 in at 200 yds. ( hand loads ). If you take the 22-250 to an 8 or 7 twist you can easily shoot 80 and 90 grainers which are much more wind stable than the 223 out to 600 yds even. Take a look at Bryan Litz's book on ballistics or the Berger manual. Regards, Snuggie.

 

[ttfreestyle]

Savage also makes a 7 twist 223, its the model 12 vlp. Very good factory gun.

 

[JG26_Irish]

I have a Rem 700HB in 223. It will not adequately stabilize the 62g and heavier bullets. BBL is 1:12 twist. So, I am doubting that a 1:12 or 1:14 twist 22-250 will either. My Remington does great with the 55/52/50 and 40g bullets. Shoots 0.152" groups at 100yds with my best hand load and about twice that with most factory ammo and sub 1/2" at 200yds. My 40g nosler ballistic tip varmint load leaves the muzzle at about 3665 fps. It is devastating on coyotes out past 300yds. Coyotes are tough to kill rapidly. That load has never failed to drop them in their tracks. It is accurate enough to kill PD's at up to 577yds. If I were to shoot big cats with it, I would probably use the heavier 55g loads. I am fairly sure that load would do the trick. But if I planned to hunt Mtn Lion, I would probably switch to the 243 or 270. I would just hate to let one get away cause I did not use enough gun.

One issue with the 22-250 is that if you do get the 1:9 or 1:7 twist bbl and try to shoot the light weight 40g bullets out of it, you may have issues with the bullets disintegrating. I have seen this happen with fast twist AR15's loaded with hot hand loads and light weight bullets. I have not had any issues with either Hornady or Nosler bullets but some of the other brand X bullets flew apart on one of my friends. The 22-250 is enough faster to only make this issue worse.

Irish

 

[Snuggie]

You got that right Irish! You can forget the 40's! They will disintegrate big time with a 1.7 tw. 8)

 

[M14AMU]

Looking to get a light weight, winter walking rifle in one of these calibers. The problem I have noticed is that 223s available in a one in nine twist rate are plentiful while a fast twist rate in the 22-250 is almost always one in fourteen. The game would be from head shot grouse and Turkey to mountain lion in size. So slower bullit out of a 223 such as a 60 grain Nosler partition or lighter and faster 50 grainers in the 22-250? Will the one in fourteen twist rate in the 22-250 stabilize 60 grain pills to keep them accurate? There are a lot of heavier bullit weights in factory loaded 223 ammo also. I have seen lions killed with 222 Rem and even 221 Fireball when treed. I no longer have this option since hound hunting is banned in this state. Ranges would be up to 300 yards but mostly under 100.

"while a fast twist rate in the 22-250 is almost always one in fourteen"

NOT a fast twist whatsoever!!

 

[GlennGTR1]

I should have said the standard twist rate for 22-250 is 1 in 14, almost every factory rifle I have seen so far with the exception of Savage which is a one in 12.

 

[DaleS]

all of the T/C barrels in .223 dia are 1-12 twist... they get the blanks in and chamber it to whatever caliber they want... found this out when I called T/C about a Hornet not shooting 35gr bullets worth a darn, and the 22-250 shooting 64gr Winchesters well... tried the 64gr in my bolt gun with a 1-14 twist and couldn't push them fast enough to get them to stabilize...

 

[Webster]

I don't understand why people want to use varmint cartridges on 100-125 pound animals. The 22 RF has traditionally been the deer poachers favorite cartridge. That doesn't mean it's a good choice if you aim accurately.

 

[moorepower]

My Rem 700 with a 1-12 shoots the 60-62 grain bullets the most accurate of all bullets at 300 yds. The Berger 62 grain flat base is the best, followed by the 60 grain HP Hornady. I can't believe that a .223 could not kill a cat with a head/ vitals shot, unless they have body armor or Kevlar on at the time.

 

[Webster]

What if the cat is on the ground running or attacking you or your dogs?

 

[Nutjob]

The original poster can't use dogs to hunt cats in his state, he only has to worry about himself.... ;D

That being said, I wouldn't worry, both cartridges would work. Sounds like the cat is just a possibility and not the main quarry, just the largest of the potential targets.