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223 velocity weirdness

long40shot

Gold $$ Contributor
On Sunday, i took my Remington sps tactical out to try a new load. The load is a 50grn v-max over 25.6grns of Benchmark. I was shooting 5 shot strings over my magneto speed chrono. The first two shots were around 3150ish then the last three shots climbed up to 3220. The brass was some one fired Top Brass brand i had laying around. Just trying to find a reason for the velocity climb.

Matt
 
Heat. Hotter the gun gets... hot chamber and letting a round sit in it before pulling the trigger. Heats up the round fast..
 
Heat might not or might not have been the issue. It's hard to tell from your post whether you're comparing the first and last shots of the day with many more in between, or the first two and last three shots of a single 5-shot string. Heating the rounds can definitely speed them up. How many shots did you fire before the chrono string and how long did you wait between shots during the chrono string? If the barrel was already hot to begin with, I can't imagine it heated up that much more in five shots. So that shouldn't have caused a 70 fps velocity excursion. If the barrel was cold to start with, 5 shots, even done rapidly, still isn't usually enough in a .223 (small case) to heat it above barely warm to the touch. So in that case I still wouldn't think heat was the likely culprit. Alternatively, if you're comparing velocity of the first two shots and last three of the day with more in between, heat could definitely be the cause.

If you clean your rifle between firings, it's also not at all uncommon to get lower velocity on the first couple shots, sometimes more, depending on how long the barrel takes to remove any residual cleaning components and properly foul. On most of mine, the velocity usually stabilizes after the first couple shots. However, I usually fire at least 5 foulers/sighters before trying to do any chrono work, just to be sure. The first one or two are always slow, although not usually 70 fps slow. In any event, now that you are aware of the issue, you should be able to determine whether heat or cleaning (or something else entirely) was the cause by shooting rounds through a cold barrel at a slow enough cadence not to heat up the barrel, while also measuring velocity. If you go through about 10 shots no faster than one per minute (or two), the barrel shouldn't heat up too badly. You will then see whether you experience the same velocity excursion after the barrel fouled, but under conditions where it wasn't hot.

Another possibility could be the brass. If it's from mixed lots, you might have a big difference in the volume of some of the cases. Measuring internal (water) case volume would reveal if that might be the cause.
 
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I am referring to the first couple shots in the string, compared to the last couple shots in the same string. I don't clean the barrel between strings. I've never really noticed this before in my other rifles. I was wondering about the brass. I've never used that top brass brand before. Could primers cause the bad ES?

Thanks
Matt
Heat might not or might not have been the issue. It's hard to tell from your post whether you're comparing the first and last shots of the day with many more in between, or the first two and last three shots of a single 5-shot string. Heating the rounds can definitely speed them up. How many shots did you fire before the chrono string and how long did you wait between shots during the chrono string? If the barrel was already hot to begin with, I can't imagine it heated up that much more in five shots. So that shouldn't have caused a 70 fps velocity excursion. If the barrel was cold to start with, 5 shots, even done rapidly, still isn't usually enough in a .223 (small case) to heat it above barely warm to the touch. So in that case I still wouldn't think heat was the likely culprit. Alternatively, if you're comparing velocity of the first two shots and last three of the day with more in between, heat could definitely be the cause.

If you clean your rifle between firings, it's also not at all uncommon to get lower velocity on the first couple shots, sometimes more, depending on how long the barrel takes to remove any residual cleaning components and properly foul. On most of mine, the velocity usually stabilizes after the first couple shots. However, I usually fire at least 5 foulers/sighters before trying to do any chrono work, just to be sure. The first one or two are always slow, although not usually 70 fps slow. In any event, now that you are aware of the issue, you should be able to determine whether heat or cleaning (or something else entirely) was the cause by shooting rounds through a cold barrel at a slow enough cadence not to heat up the barrel, while also measuring velocity. If you go through about 10 shots no faster than one per minute (or two), the barrel shouldn't heat up too badly. You will then see whether you experience the same velocity excursion after the barrel fouled, but under conditions where it wasn't hot.

Another possibility could be the brass. If it's from mixed lots, you might have a big difference in the volume of some of the cases. Measuring internal (water) case volume would reveal if that might be the cause.
 
Primers can definitely be the cause of high ES, even between different lots of the same brand. Sometimes simply changing primer brands can make a world of difference. It might be worth keeping a couple different brands around to test if one isn't giving satisfactory results. Having said that, a 70 fps spread is pretty high to be solely accounted for by the primer you were using not being the optimal one for that load, because I assume the primers in your velocity loads were all from the same lot.

Velocity excursions of that magnitude can often be caused by several factors happening at once. Assuming you shot the strings in such a way that barrel heat wasn't the [sole] culprit, and the change wasn't due to the difference between a clean and fouled barrel, the first two things I would look at are brass/brass prep, and dispensing powder charges. Consistent neck tension is key for low ES/SD, as is making sure you don't have significant variance in your charge weights. Fortunately, these are both quantifiable entities, as is the possible contribution of carrying case volume due to the mixed lot brass. Sometimes trouble-shooting a load issue like this one step/component at a time can be painful, but solving the issue will pay dividends in the long run.
 
I am referring to the first couple shots in the string, compared to the last couple shots in the same string. I don't clean the barrel between strings. I've never really noticed this before in my other rifles. I was wondering about the brass. I've never used that top brass brand before. Could primers cause the bad ES?

Thanks
Matt

Was it every string or just one?
 
What is the pace of shooting (time between each shot)?

How long is the cartridge in the chamber as you set up to take the shot and pull or squeeze rhe trigger?

A fast pace coupled with long dwell time in the chamber could easily make the powder on the last few rounds a fair bit warmer. An increase of only 30 - 40 degrees would explain the velocity jump even with a mildly temperature sensitve powder like Benchmark.
 
If its a new load and a random load with no work up done then this may be your problem. Powder charge may need to be adjusted and then possible primer change or better yet a complete work up done.
 
A round was probably in the chamber around 20 seconds between shots. My load was a 50grn v-max, 25.6 of Benchmark, cci primer, Top Brass brass. Now, if i remember, those cases had sat primed, in a loading block for quite a while before i loaded powder and bullet. Top Brass isn't my regular brass, but it was there and ready to go. Lately, I've been using wcc brass.
 
The most logical reason I can come up with is that your cases' internal capacity varies quite a bit. Isn't Top Brass once-fired military? I have had no issue with using once-fired LC brass, ever since I first started loading for 223 back in 1971. But up until the late '90s, Olin ran Lake City Arsenal, and I think they produced slightly more consistent brass than the current operators do. I bought 7000 pieces of once-fired LC 5.56 back when a friend was running a commercial loading company and had bought a trailer full of more than 500,000 pieces of it from Canon AFB. Mine was all LC95 & 97, and I used it in all my XC & LR HP ammo. It was good enough to get me my Distinguished Rifleman Badge, and a High Master XC classification. I did some checking on the weight of this stuff after doing all the case prep work - tumbling, sizing, trimming, deburring flash holes, and it was surprisingly consistent, with no more than 3 grains difference between the lightest & heaviest cases - and that was due to a relatively small number of cases at the extremes.
 
For this to always happen on multiple strings it is highly unlikely that defective/variable brass would always line up in the same order to cause low to high velocity. Sounds more like something is heating up, chamber or ammo in the sun.
 
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If the SPS Tactical has a .223 chamber, and some of the cases had a 5.56 origin, there may be some issues with bullet release due to the thicker brass in the 5.56 necks trying to expand in the tighter .223 chamber's neck.

This is the reason why I only own rifles with 5.56 chambers, they are more forgiving.

PS I just spent 20 minutes trying (unsuccessfully) to determine the reamer used for the SPS Tactical's chamber, but advertising says it's a .223.

Along the way, I found a number of dissertations which all eventually decayed into pissin' matches, so I can't even be sure if I'm right.

Greg
 
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Are you loading one shot at a time, or do you have a magazine that you are loading and shooting from? When I shoot for group, I load one shot at a time. I have seen something similar to this when loading from a magazine, or clip. First round was always different due to the way it fed. Subsequent shots different due to gun weight, recoil, barrel length, etc. Found out my custom revolver had one funky chamber in the cylinder when I finally shot for group with one shot at a time. 22 Semi-Auto has similar issue if shooting from a clip.
 
The most logical reason I can come up with is that your cases' internal capacity varies quite a bit. Isn't Top Brass once-fired military? I have had no issue with using once-fired LC brass, ever since I first started loading for 223 back in 1971. But up until the late '90s, Olin ran Lake City Arsenal, and I think they produced slightly more consistent brass than the current operators do. I bought 7000 pieces of once-fired LC 5.56 back when a friend was running a commercial loading company and had bought a trailer full of more than 500,000 pieces of it from Canon AFB. Mine was all LC95 & 97, and I used it in all my XC & LR HP ammo. It was good enough to get me my Distinguished Rifleman Badge, and a High Master XC classification. I did some checking on the weight of this stuff after doing all the case prep work - tumbling, sizing, trimming, deburring flash holes, and it was surprisingly consistent, with no more than 3 grains difference between the lightest & heaviest cases - and that was due to a relatively small number of cases at the extremes.


Funny you mention this about Lake City brass...the best shooting I ever did with a 223 was when I had 1990-91 LC stuff. I also found those years very consistent when weighing it after prep. I now have a metric a$$load of 2010/2011/2012 and it is not near as consistent as the earlier stuff. I am unable to get the groups I did with the older brass.
I have also seen the strange velocity jumps with the 223. It is definitely more than i would like to see. I can say that in my case it was not heat. If heat alone caused that much spread I would quit shooting the 223...it's not safe enough for me. I too thought it might be primers, and it still might, but I did all I could. I got the uniforming tool and did a bunch of brass and even measured the depth to make sure it was all the same and I still saw that jumping around velocity.
I would have blamed it on neck tension or sticking bullets, but I had my ammo/rifle do it the same day I loaded annealed and lubed necks.
The next thing I did was double check the powder charges...it seems like to me that as much of a velocity spread as I saw with some of this ammo it almost had to be powder related. Still...it all starts with the primer.

I thought that Benchmark was one of those "extreme" powders that wasn't supposed to be affected by temperature?????
 
Top Brass isn't a mfg of brass, they are a retailer of recovered/recycled brass. Keep track of the headstamps. Segregate them. If in doubt weigh them, segregate further.

I have a bunch of LC with 02 to current headstamps and they are pretty darned consistent in weight once trimmed. There are a few lights and heavies but 90% fall between a 2 grain range. Good value for the price.
 

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